Help me figure out what kind of AR I want

[Derek Zeanah]

My experience with AR pattern rifles is limited to M16A1's and M16A2's, along with a homebuilt 20" A2 style AR I bought off a guy once (and resold), and an ultralight carbon-fiber version I've got now. I'm not a huge fan of the .223, but I've got to say I like the ergonomics of the shorty ARs I've seen recently.

I think I'd like to own one, but I don't have a good feel for my options and I really don't know how the various do-dads people attach to their weapons actually affect the ergonomics of the thing.

So, I'm looking for help.

For starters, something short would probably work best -- 16" will likely be fine, but my concern is having a short enough rifle that it feels light, and quick. I think I'd go with a shorter version over a full-sized barrel if they were the same weight just for the difference in the way it handled.

So, on to my questions.

• Who makes a good trigger? All the AR/M16s I've fired have had really gritty two-stage triggers. I like two stage triggers, but I'd like something closer to the feel of a "real" rifle. Does anyone make a trigger that feels close to a Garand or M1A (ie, not perfect but pretty darn nice)?
• Adjustable stock. Future gun school use means I may very well be wearing something like an LBE, and standard size stocks have always felt a bit short for me. Which stocks should I be looking at?
• Optics. Gonna have optics -- likely a Trijicon reflex. So I'm leaning toward a flattop, maybe with back-up irons. What's the best way to mount these? More important -- are they really necessary? Reflex sights don't actually seem that fragile (especially the milspec ones), so if I could get away without one then that may very well be the most practical choice.
• Twist rate. People are moving to larger rounds the last I looked, as the lighter rounds lose "oomph" at short ranges with short barrels. What's a good twist rate to handle most any ammo I might decide to shoot?
• Hand guards. This is where I start guessing. I've seen lots of folks using tommy-gun style foregrips mounted to the underside of the barrel -- do these help controllability? Do y'all think they're an improvement over the standard handguards (likely when shooting a lot without gloves, I'd think)?
• Doo-dads. Everyone seems to want tactical lights mounted on their rifles these days. I remember night fires @ Fort Benning where we couldn't see anything because we had no moon, and chem lights weren't even visible at 50m, so I can see how they could be useful. But (and this is a big "but") are they actually useful? Do you need these for gun schools, and do they aid much in an around-the-house defense rifle for someone who's got surprisingly good night vision anyway[1]? How about weight and fragility?

How about manufacturers -- does it matter much? Is this something where I could buy a lower from one maker and an upper from another and be happy, or is this something that causes problems 10% of the time?

I guess that's it for now. Please be gentle.

[1]: my night vision's not as good as it used to be, but back when I was in the Army I remember leading a brigade march in Germany where it was dark -- overcast, no moon, heavy tree cover. My track got tagged to lead the march for some reason after a couple of officers ran into problems keeping on the road, and I still remember hearing my sergeant's voice in my helmet saying "God d*amn Zeanah, I'm glad you're keeping us on the road because even with NODs I can't see ****" Now that was more about peripheral vision, and we had the tactical light running on the front of the vehicle, but I still do really well without lights when things go "bump" in the night. Don't know how well I could take things in and use a sight on a rifle, though...

 

[nico]

I'll try to throw in my 2 cents.

The Geissele trigger is said to be the best 2 stage available (and about the only one that won't eventually start to double), but it's not cheap.

There are several good stocks on the market. Some of the more popular are the VLTOR modstock, Magpul CTR, and LMT SOPMOD (very expensive). Magpul also has the UBR coming out at some point, which should be an improvement over the CTR.

Optics- lots of 3-gunners use a scope alone, but you can't be completely tacticool without BUIS's. It's basically a matter of personal preference IMO, unless you're going to war.

As for twist rate, based on the research I did before buying my upper (RRA stainless midlength flat top, 1:8 twist), 1:8 seems to be the most versatile, allowing you to shoot all but 4x grain varmint loads. 1:9 isn't quite as good for the heavier loads and I've heard that 1:7 barrels can be (a few reports of key-holing, but most seem to be ok) finicky with <55gr loads.

There are also a lot of choices with free floating handguards. LaRue and Daniel Defense make good, lightweight handguards if you want something tacticool (built in rails), while a lot of 3-gunners swear by the JP VTAC. The VTAC doesn't have built in rails, but instead uses sections of rail that can be mounted every 45 degrees around the circumference of the rail. It's cheaper than the others, but can get expensive if you want a lot of rails.

as for all the other gadgets people hang from their guns, that's a matter of personal preference too. I don't have any experience with any of them, so I can't really comment.

 

[aubie515]

Lots of questions...which is good. I also prefer the light AR's over the heavy barrels. I have always owned heavy barrels and wanted a light weight rifle. I also prefer the 16" over the 20" because of the overall length and I don't feel that I am losing that much FPS with a 16" barrel.

As far as who to purchase from...there are a lot of good AR dealers online. I have used www.del-ton.com for a kit. It comes with everything but the lower receiver. Their prices are reasonable and quality is good.

http://www.del-ton.com/


Sabre Defence offers some great barrels as well. Prices are higher, but quality is very good.
http://sabredefence.com/

For stocks, it seems that the Magpul CTR stock is the one to buy. I don't own a CTR yet, but it's on my to purchase list.
http://www.magpul.com/


Triggers
http://www.geissele.com/

Optics...I have a Trijicon Tripower on one of my ARs and I like it so far. I picked it over the Eotech and Aimpoint because you can use it without batteries. You cannot beat Aimpoints battery life or Eotechs durability, so it's a matter of personal preference.

Optics mounts I'd say Larue and second place ARMS.

Good luck in getting what you want. Here are a couple of pics of my light weight AR.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

RRA makes a good one for the money, right around $100. If you want a combat rated trigger, look at KAC or Geisselle.

The Magpul CTR is my favorite collapsable stock. It's rock solid for an adjustable.

Flat top ALL THE WAY. There's a reason the military is going with A4's, optics are the future. I like the ACOG, but there are other excellent options out there. The Aimpoint, Eotech are both excellent. Trijicon actually makes a pretty cool reflex sight that requires no batteries. Optics make you faster and more accurate.

I like 1/9 because I shoot primarily 55gr ammo. 1/7 isn't bad if you're shooting a lot of 77gr ammo, but most 1/9's do fine with 77gr ammo as well.

VFG's are a preference thing. Some guys like them, some don't. some like them straight down, some like them point back towards you... I just hold onto the front of the magwell. If you get a VFG, I would recommend you get a free floated rail though. Free floated rails don't only increase accuracy, but they make for a more solid mounting platform. I like Larue, DD, Samson...

Most of the quality lights out there are solid/durable. They help tremendously if you were to clear your house at night...

Manufacturers matter. The best ones are CMT/Stag, LMT, CMMG, Colt, Sabre, etc...

My personal favorite is Stag, best bang for the buck, although they lack as many options as many others..

You shouldn't have any issues if you bought a complete upper and a complete lower from two seperate manufacturers, as long as both are good quality.

 

[jem375]

Any of the A,B,C,D, and R of ar's will do the trick for you. I have 2 DPMS's with the JP trigger and that is all I will ever need. My 20" flat top SS bull barrel is set up with a Shepherd one-shot zero scope and Mangonel front and back flip-up sights and VLTOR stock, and my other is just an A2 upper and the lower has a 6 position collapsible stock and JP trigger.

 

[Titan6]

Other than my issue weapon I do not currently have an AR in .223, mine is in .308. I am not crazy about the .223 but it is much more maligned than it deserves. Still the .308 is much better in many ways. But my advice wouldn't change much either way.

Stocks: I am also a large man so I have an adjustable six position stock that goes out quite aways. When in close quarters I bring it in about half way. It slides easily and locks solidly so no issues there. The longer stocks helps when in the prone or at a rest. You can find these everywhere.

Hand guard /Front handle: I have a front handle mounted on the bottom of a quad rail near the end of the rail. I really like mine and it helps with accuarcy and follow up shots. The rail makes it heavy on the front side and the handle more than makes up for it to help balance. Also the quad rail is not real comfortable to hold and the handle takes care of that. Since I am firing .308 the recoil is significantly higher than .223 and having the handle and quad rail reduces muzzle rise and time to reaquire a target. Either way a quad or tri rail is a good way to go. It keeps your options open.

Flashlights and lasers: Well.... we are talking about a weapon that has a maximum effective range of more than 400 meters. No flashlight that you would mount would reach out that far. So where is your safe back stop? At night in SD role I use a shotgun which does have a light and laser on it. I can see about as far as I can shoot lethally and don't have to worry about accidentally taking out the neighbors putting out their trash at 2300. If you are inside turn the lights on. If the power is out than a weapon mounted light is quite handy. But at night the AR is not my first choice for SD anyway.

If you plan on using it for CQB in urban operations in a war torn nation then maybe?? But combat is far different from LE operations, self defense and such. Green light lasers are great for the day time but are a liability at night.

If you want to spend some real money get a set of PVS 14s and a IR laser. You can see out quite a ways and no one will see you coming or see the IR laser unless they have NVGs also in which case you are a sitting duck. Need about $6K for that though.

Optics/ Sites: Here I use A2 style Iron sites. I am not a very good shot and yet at 100 meters I have a consistent 3'' pattern around the bullseye. At 500 meters this opens up to about 18''. I really don't 'need' to be any more accuarate then that. If I am trying to be accuarate I take the sights off and put on 6-20X scope. This cuts my groups in half and I can shoot out to about 800 meters and still hit the target sometimes which makes me happy since it is more then half a mile away, but not very useful to me though. I find that fancy optics get broke, batteries die, mounts loosen up all at times when I don't want them to. Iron sites have never yet failed me. A bent front site post is field fixable. A smashed $300 Trijicon lens is not. Either way though, get the flat top it will leave your options open.

Anyway good luck and hopes this helps. As I am in the market for .223 AR I will follow along as well.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

If you want to spend some real money get a set of PVS 14s and a IR laser. You can see out quite a ways and no one will see you coming or see the IR laser unless they have NVGs also in which case you are a sitting duck. Need about $6K for that though.

Well, I sold my PVS14's because they gave me a headache when I was walking around with them, and AFAIK IR weaponmount lasers (what is it, the AN-PQ-something?) are not something civilians can come by legally.

Re Sights: The A2 sights are pretty good, but my eyes aren't as good as they used to be, and the A2 sights suck at night even with the big aperture. I prefer having everything in one focal plane, and a dot makes a difference at night IME.

Not being contrary - I appreciate your thoughts.

 

[possum]

makers:
i have experience with many bushmasters and i have never been disappointed they are great, reliable, accurate guns and i have never had a problem out of any of them. my dad has had three and i have owned two, we both now have bushmasters and we are keepin' em they are great, and we have no realreason to go with anything else. there are many great makers out there but i do not comment on them. i don't have the experience with them like i do the bushmasters.

Trigger:
my favorite trigger is the rra 2 stage trigger, they are light and crisp and make a heck of a good trigger for any ar based rifle. our sdms use the knight's armament 2 stage trigger which is another good choice.

Optics:
i have the eo-tech on mine it is great from extreme close quarters and out to 300 meters and beyond. i have had zero gripes about mine and i love it. it is quick on target, bright if you need it to be and is perfect for alot of applications. the 65 moa circle is great for close in work on the fly and the 1 moa makes it easy to get good hits on targets that are a little ways out. the circle also is approx. the size of a human at 100yds so it helps in range estimation as well. there are also hash marks at the 3,6,9,and 12 oclock postions which help with leading, and hold over and such. another plus is that there is no mounting stuff required, you take it out of the box and slap it on there.

i also like the leupold cqt as well it is a really neat optic. if you wanted some magnification.

Iron sights:
don't forget about buis, you will need them if the red dot goes out or other optic if that is applicable plus in trainning they like to hit on the use of iron sights which i think everyone should be proficcent on them before they have a red dot anyway!
i run a 200 to 600 meter adjustable flip up rear sight. but i also like the gg&g mad buis as well.

Stock:
i like the 6 position stock on mine but the vltor's are nice two. i use the first and second positions only but that is a personal preference. the 1st when i am wearing body armor and the second when i am not.

Twist Rate:
i like the 1x9 which covers the types of ammo that i shoot which is exclusivly 55gr and 62gr.

Handguards:
i have a knight's armamnet rail system on mine but that is only because i got a great deal on it. and a knight's vertical foregrip there are many great rail systems out there, and at good prices. i like the vertical foregrip on an ar personally. it is easier for me to control and more comfortable to shoot. plus it seems to me that they are a little handier that way.

i like the knights armament, the daniel defense, the sir just to name a few.

if you want to mount do-dads on there you will want to get a rail system, and rail covers to cover up the rails you aren't using.

btw don't forget about a good sling. i prefer the 1 point slings. i use the sling and the plate that has the sling adapter that attaches on the buffer tube. i like it alot.

here are a few pics of mine. hope that i have helped you.

 

[Titan6]

Senior moment there. Hadn't occurred to me that civilians can not get IR lasers (this is woefully unfair but I doubt it will change). I heard ITT was selling them a while back but got popped with a huge fine for breaking the law.

I guess you could get some kind of IR illuminator but if you can not tolerate NVGs that will not work. In any case large illuminators make a huge signature that I for one would not want in combat but is still better than a flashlight. Seeing at night is a big problem without NVGs.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Oh, I can tolerate NODs fine (got a set of '7's right now), just not monocolars with almost 1x magnification.

 

[wooderson]

Since seeing it mentioned by Oleg, I've been looking at the SLR15 (slr15.com, I believe). Seems to be excellent value for the money, a wide variety of options are available and it's spoken highly of at a few places. But I've seen no mention of trigger quality.

 

[SomeKid]

Why can't we (lowly civs appearently) get IR stuff? I was hoping to one day make money and buy some just for fun. Bad idea?

 

[blackhawk2000]

Who makes a good trigger? Get the standard trigger polished by someone who knows what he is doing. Fancy triggers don't do well with hard use.


Adjustable stock. I really like the new Magpul CTR. Standard 6 position works just fine for me too, but the CTR has a locking mech to eliminate all rattle.


Optics. Reflex sucks. Try an Aimpoint, or an ACOG, or EOTech. (my order of preference.)


Twist rate. 1:9 might handle the 75-77g rds. Might not. 1:7 is probably too fast for the 45g and lighter rds. Twist rate varies slightly in the manufacturing process, so not all 1:9's will shoot the heavy stuff, and vice versa.


Hand guards. I like VFG's. I think they help you with control. Tango Down makes a very nice one. You can get screw on rails that mount on the standard handguards. No idea if they are sturdy enough. Probably not. My newest build is getting a cheap YHM free float. The Larue and Daniel Defense are top line items, but I don't need one. My rail is for the VFG, and light mounts only, and for the free float benefit. IMO an optic doesn't belong on the rail, but if you had to have a front sight mounted on the rail, or an optic, then I would go with Larue.


Doo-dads. Lights are good. How well would your night vision work, after you got lit up with a Surefire?


CMMG makes a light barrel 14.5" midlength gas system. Stag makes good cheap lowers. Get a decent parts kit too if you are building.

 

[Titan6]

If NODs are not a problem there are several different makers of GEN III adjustable power day/night scopes (the only civilian ones I have seen are ATN and they are of good quality). But you are back in the $3-4K+ range. These are above and beyond the old Gen II PVS4s.

But then you have a fragile device that I would guess would not appreciate much banging around.

 

[taliv]

i'm not aware of any law saying civilians can't have IR lasers. someone please point that out to me.

i am aware that some mfgs won't sell to civilians. but that's not a law, just a company's policy.

 

[Risasi]

I have no thoughts at the moment. I myself am building AR's to store away for a rainy day. So I am reading this thread with great interest. I happened across this while doing an advanced search for iron sights which are good for night / low light.


P.S. I still haven't found any decent night sights.

 

[nico]

I've heard good things about XS sights' night sights: http://www.xssights.com/store/tactical.html

one of their same-plane apertures is on my "to-buy" list

 

[ryoushi]

Sometimes Less Is More

Simple, lightweight Israeli clone carbine

Any lower you want, A-1 upper with M4 barrel. IDF accesories from Zahal.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

So, on to my questions.
Who makes a good trigger? All the AR/M16s I've fired have had really gritty two-stage triggers. I like two stage triggers, but I'd like something closer to the feel of a "real" rifle. Does anyone make a trigger that feels close to a Garand or M1A (ie, not perfect but pretty darn nice)?

The ADCO modfication of the RRA trigger is probably the best value. It is a nice two-stage trigger that is fairly robust at a low price. I generally stick to stock triggers myself because I don't trust match triggers on ARs. Geiselle, Knights, and JP have a better reputation than most but are probably not as robust as a stock trigger. Timney also makes a trigger that supposedly feels great; but has some reliability issues currently.

Adjustable stock. Future gun school use means I may very well be wearing something like an LBE, and standard size stocks have always felt a bit short for me. Which stocks should I be looking at?

For my money, nothing beats the Magpul M93 (except maybe its slated replacement, the UBR). More adjustability than any telestock and as solid and stable as a fixed stock. I thought the price was obscene when I first bought one and figured I would probably end up returning it; but it has been one of my better purchases. The stock is heavy (which is good if you are counterbalancing a lot of stuff hanging off the front) and it solves the problem of a cheekweld half on the stock and half on the buffer tube.

If you run your stock mostly closed anyway, then a lot of people prefer the ACR-type cheekweld provided by the VLTOR and Crane stocks. You can also take a look at the Magpul CTR which uses a conventional buffer tube; but with a friction lock.

Optics. Gonna have optics -- likely a Trijicon reflex. So I'm leaning toward a flattop, maybe with back-up irons. What's the best way to mount these? More important -- are they really necessary? Reflex sights don't actually seem that fragile (especially the milspec ones), so if I could get away without one then that may very well be the most practical choice.

Have you used a Trijicon Reflex before? They've got some issues in my opinion. They are certainly functional, tough sights; but they have really been eclipsed by the Eotechs, Aimpoints, Tripower and other sights. As to whether the backup irons are necessary - I'd say yes if you go with the Reflex since the reticle can washout in a variety of conditions (one of them being a brightly lit target while the shooter is in a dark area). The Reflex sights are tough; but there will be instances where irons will be handy (rain is another).

Twist rate. People are moving to larger rounds the last I looked, as the lighter rounds lose "oomph" at short ranges with short barrels. What's a good twist rate to handle most any ammo I might decide to shoot?

A 1/7 twist will handle any ammo you can feed an AR15, including some of the exotic experimental stuff. A 1/8 will handle almost any ammo you can purchase over the counter. The 1/9 starts to get marginal with rounds above 69gr. Some 1/9s will handle the 73-77gr rounds and some won't. Even the 1/9s that won't handle it though will usually do 4-5" at 100yds and are sufficient for home defense.

Hand guards. This is where I start guessing. I've seen lots of folks using tommy-gun style foregrips mounted to the underside of the barrel -- do these help controllability?

They help a lot in firing repeated shots on the same target, firing while moving and supporting a rifle that has a ton of accessories (suppressor, lights, IR, etc.) hanging off the rail.

Do y'all think they're an improvement over the standard handguards (likely when shooting a lot without gloves, I'd think)?

Eh...with a good rail system you really have to work to heat it up where you can't grab it due to shooting (leaving it lying in the hot sun will do it quickly though). For transitions between multiple targets, it seems a bit faster to go with no VFG; but I do like rails regardless just for the extra options they give you.

Doo-dads. Everyone seems to want tactical lights mounted on their rifles these days. I remember night fires @ Fort Benning where we couldn't see anything because we had no moon, and chem lights weren't even visible at 50m, so I can see how they could be useful. But (and this is a big "but") are they actually useful? Do you need these for gun schools, and do they aid much in an around-the-house defense rifle for someone who's got surprisingly good night vision anyway[1]? How about weight and fragility?

Depends on the gun school - I know some that do incorporate some low-light scenarios where a light is handy. I run a Surefire G2 in 1" low-mount rings. It cost me about $42 total and weighs around 4.5oz. It isn't designed to be a weapon light; but the last one held up for 5k rounds of constant use before the bulb finally blew out/died. For another $29 you can add an anti-shock bezel (or just buy a spare G2). This gives you a nice indoors and short-range capable light; but you would be pushing it beyond about 100yds. You can get more powerful lights though if that is what you need.

Basically ARs are modular enough nowadays that you can modify them to do almost any task you need done. You just have to decide what it is you want out them. If you are very task specific, then answers pop up easily. If you start trying to build a more general purpose rifle that can do a lot of things well, then it becomes more of a design philosophy thing where you'll have to make tradeoffs and some people prefer certain tradeoffs more than others.