Help me speak in favor of CCW in AZ schools Mon 2/18

[swingpress]

Hi folks,

I intend to speak before the committee in favor of AZ SB1214 tomorrow, 2/18/08. SB1214 would additionally allow AZ CCW permit holders to carry in school buildings and at election places.

I would really like your help in order to present the best case possible within the 2-3 minutes I will be allowed to make my case.

So far, the best I have to offer is something like this. I'll be the first to criticize it for coming across as vigilante. I think that is going to be my biggest hurdle. Truth is, that is the goal, to protect those who look to us for protection. It is somewhat vigilante.

Advice?

INTRODUCTION:

Honorably discharged US Marine. (love this country, this state)

Concealed permit holder (submitted to and cleared background check).

Regular competitor at local pistol competitions. (even won a couple).

Work in AZ schools.

On 2/14 a KNAU announcer, in the habit of saying "Northern Arizona University", while reporting the tragedy at Northern Illinois University accidentally misidentified the location of the shooting as Northern Arizona University before correcting himself. My heart skipped a beat. I suspect the heart of every Arizona listener did the same.

Heaven forbid that kind of violence should ever come to Arizona schools. We must take steps to ensure that it does not.

PROBLEM:

Students rightfully expect protection from us.

Criminals, by definition, do not obey lays. (including weapons restrictions)

Schools are known by terrorists and security experts as "soft targets" because of their vulnerability.

Law enforcement are not omnipresent. A well organized attack would include a plan to avoid or eliminate known security personnel.

EXAMPLES OF PERMIT HOLDERS STOPPING ATTACKS:

December 9, 2007 - Matthew Murray killed 2 and injured 3 at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, CO before being stopped by a concealed-permit-holder and volunteer security guard Jeanne Assam. Assam is credited with saving "over 100 lives" by the pastor.

October 1, 1997 - Luke Woodham killed 2 and injured 7 during a shooting spree at Pearl, MS High School. Woodham heard approaching sirens and was making his escape to the Pearl, MS Middle School where he planned to continue his attack, when he was confronted and stopped by Vice Principal Joel Myrick armed with a .45. Joel. Myrick had run to his truck when he heard the first shots and retrieved the pistol. What if he had been wearing it?

SOLUTION:

I, as a permit holder can only make the decision that I will not allow a madman to prey on innocent people undeterred in my presence. This is statistically unlikely in the first place as I, also, am not omnipresent.

You as legislators can make a much more effective decision. You can force criminals to run a credible risk that I , or someone like me, will be present to stop or limit the scope of a tragedy. I believe the effect of signing this law could be much more than that of employing an additional security guard at each school.

Even if a particular school does not have a permit-holder who chooses to prepare for the worst, that school can still benefit from the doubt created in the mind of an attacker who must face the challenge that anyone might be capable of stopping an attack.

I am not the most qualified person I know who would use their concealed permit to make schools safer. I am not the runner-up.

 

[threefeathers]

I wish I could be there with you. I am a teacher/coach in SO AZ so I have a few comments. The day after the latest shooting I have a young man in my class who has been institutionalized several times for violent behavior. When he is on his meds he is fairly nice, off of them he goes beserk in seconds. In the past he would not have been allowed in school. After the shooting he was screaming and yelling about wanting to kill every one. He was taken by the Admin but it took them nearly 20 minutes to gather him.
We have one officer and he tells me that if something happens and it is organized it will be an easy job to nail him and then 3K students are at risk.
I was involved in a shooting incident at a smaller school and several teachers who are VN and Korean vets went after the shooter with rocks, nailing her before she could kill any one.
Last summer I stopped a robbery at the Hometown Buffet and when it was over at least 5 folks came to me and told me they had planned to get their CCW but had been putting it off.

 

[swingpress]

Threfeathers,

It sounds like you would have much to offer the committee! Too bad you can't make it!

Do you have a link an accurate news report of the incident involving the rocks? Was that in AZ?

 

[armoredman]

There is one classroom where I can guarentee there will never ever be a school shooting. All students are strip searched prior to entry, each is locked in a small cage with a desk, chair, and writing utensils, materials for the class are passed through a foodtrap in the door, and students are escorted in and out by two staff members, in belly chains and leg irons.
Of course, that's a maximum secuity prison too. Guess they wouldn't like to do that to ALL students in the name of safety?

 

[yhtomit]

Threefeathers: I'd also like to hear about that. And about the Hometown Buffet one, too, if there were any news writeups; I always like to have links to specific stories of "crimes prevented or lessened by armed citizens" which I can use to point out to skeptics.

timothy

 

[Starship1st]

Dont forget how the volunteer securty guard foiled a mass killing at the church last month in Colorado. How about the teacher with the school in Pearl MS that stoped a student from his killing spree even though the teacher had to run to his locked car first to get the gun.

Good luck to you!

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Wish I would have seen this earlier ..

Best I can think of is to put emphasis on one deterrent factor:
If criminals/terrorists know that staff are allowed concealed carry, they will not know which adults are armed and which are not. Some will be compelled to choose a softer target for their aggressions.
If they are attacked, at least give them a fighting chance.

Edit: additional thoughts:
..Israeli teachers are armed to defend the children under their care....
....maybe a snippet regarding the responsibility of those doing the 'requiring' to provide for a safe and secure learning environment on government (we the people's) land.... the state's financial losses incurred by damages paid re: loss of life due to infringement of the 2A ...
..

...
..
Best of luck to you, swingpress.

 

[swingpress]

Thanks for all your help.

As you can see, I've been putting your suggestions to good use.

I'll have another look in the am.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

So how did it turn out, swingpress?

 

[SinistralRifleman]

SB 1214, an AzCDL requested bill, was heard in the Senate Judiciary Committee on Monday, February 18, 2008.

SB 1214 proposes changes to ARS 13-3102 to allow adults with Concealed Weapons (CCW) permits to carry concealed firearms on school campuses, including colleges and universities. Federal law (18 USC § 922(q)(2)(B)(ii)) already allows CCW permit holders to possess firearms on school property.

The hearing room was packed and testimony on SB 1214 lasted about two hours. After the gun bigots, professional government lobbyists, and paid shills for the totalitarian groups testified against SB 1214, the media packed up their cameras and note pads and left the room, so don't expect to see any balanced news stories.

The remainder of the citizen testimony supported SB 1214 and it was outstanding! A number of AzCDL members took the time to testify along with students and teachers who have to survive in our violence ridden government controlled schools, colleges and universities. We deeply appreciate the education professionals who came forth to testify, knowing they were putting their careers at risk for speaking the truth.

Recorded video of the hearing will be available for viewing soon at: http://azleg.granicus.com/ViewPublisher.php?view_id=3 .

Unfortunately, since all committee members could not be there for the hearing, a vote was not taken on SB 1214 at this hearing. It will probably occur at the committee's next meeting on Monday, February 25, 2008.

The position (for or against) of everyone who logged onto to Request To Speak (RTS) system was read into the committee minutes. RTS was heavily used by the opponents of SB 1214 and severely under-utilized by the good guys (our side!). We need to change that. You can access RTS from home, once your account has been set up using one of the kiosks at the Capitol. It's time to show a bigger presence. We urge everyone to set up an RTS account. If you would like our help in setting one up, send an email to [email protected].

 

[SinistralRifleman]

Weapons in school debated

Recent shootings pit campus police chiefs vs. gun advocates; Senate panel delays vote

Scott Wong

Arizona Republic

February 19, 2008

The top cops from Arizona's three public universities on Monday shared grave concerns about legislation that would allow people with permits to carry guns onto K-12 and university campuses.

But more than a dozen gun-rights advocates made passionate pleas for the proposal's passage, saying it would give students, teachers and administrators a way to protect themselves. Proponents argued that by the time police respond to mass school shootings, the carnage is usually over.

After hearing more than two hours of testimony, the Senate Judiciary Committee postponed a vote on the bill until next week.

Police chiefs from Arizona State University, the University of Arizona and Northern Arizona University testified that allowing gun-permit holders to bring firearms onto school grounds would create confusion when officers respond to a shooting incident. It could lead to the loss of additional innocent lives, they said.

"Our job is difficult enough. I don't think there is a solution to the violence and the shootings we are experiencing on campuses," said ASU Police Chief John Pickens, who previously served as director of public safety at Northern Illinois University, where a gunman last week killed five people and wounded more than a dozen others before taking his own life.

"These shootings have occurred and will occur in churches, municipal buildings, shopping malls. We've seen that trend and it will go on," he added.

Rick Dalton, a Heritage Academy history teacher and former Mesa police officer, said the bill would create safer schools.

"I believe it can and probably will save lives," Dalton said. "In the vast majority of these incidents, when the police arrive, it's too late. It's over with. Somebody's got to do something now."

Senate Bill 1214 would exempt concealed-carry-weapons-permit holders from a state law that bars individuals from knowingly carrying deadly weapons onto the grounds of any public or private K-12 school, college or university in Arizona.

The three university chiefs were backed by a handful of law-enforcement groups, including the Arizona Fraternal Order of Police and the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police, who expressed opposition to the bill.

Detractors raised concerns about parents bringing firearms to emotionally charged youth-sporting events. They also said sightings of concealed weapons could be disruptive, possibly triggering schools to go into lockdown mode.

Buckeye Police Chief Dan Saban, head of a coalition of West Valley police chiefs, characterized the legislation as a "knee-jerk reaction" to recent school shootings at Virginia Tech and NIU.

In Thursday's incident, Stephen Kazmierczak, 27, walked onto a stage of an NIU lecture hall and opened fire on a geology class, using a shotgun and two handguns.

By the time campus authorities reached the scene, the University of Illinois graduate student had killed five people, wounded 16 others and fatally shot himself.

"It isn't always how fast (police) can get there," said Sen. Karen Johnson, R-Mesa, a Judiciary Committee member and the lead sponsor of the bill. "It's who is there at the time, who is readily available to take care of the situation."

 

[SinistralRifleman]

Lawmaker urges easing public school weapons ban

University police chiefs disagree with Mesa Republican

HOWARD FISCHER

East Valley Tribune

February 19, 2008

Sen. Karen Johnson said she believes the tragedy last week at Northern Illinois University would have been avoided — or at least less tragic — had faculty and students been armed.

The Mesa R e p u b l i c a n urged colleagues Monday to approve a bill she has submitted that would partially repeal existing laws and regulations banning weapons on public school, community college and university campuses.

But the police chiefs of all three state universities told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee that more guns on campus could result in more deaths.

The proposed law, known as SB1214, would be limited to those who have a state concealed weapons permit, which has a minimum age requirement of 21.

Johnson said without weapons, students and teachers are “sitting ducks.”

University of Arizona police Chief Anthony Daykin disagreed.

Daykin said dealing with an armed shooter is difficult enough without five or six bystanders pulling out their concealed guns.

“What kind of carnage might we have?” he said.

Bryan Soller, president of Arizona Fraternal Order of Police, told lawmakers to consider the issue from the perspective of police officers responding to the scene — and looking for someone with a gun.

“We say ‘Police!’ He goes ‘What?’ It’s over,” said Soller, a Mesa police sergeant. “He’s going to get shot immediately because if we see a threat we’re going to take him out.”

But much of the debate — and the likely fate of the measure when it comes up for a vote next week — centered around the question of whether more guns might have altered the outcome of last week’s incident at NIU, where a gunman killed six and wounded 16 before taking his own life.

Arizona State University police Chief John Pickens told lawmakers he served at NIU before coming to Arizona.

“I don’t think there is a solution to the violence we’re seeing on campus,” he said. “No preparation can prevent an incident.”

The best answer, he said, is proper training, not only of police but also people on the campus community.

Johnson said having police respond, even quickly, is not the answer.

“It’s who’s there at the time and is ready and available to take care of the situation,” she said. Johnson said if someone with a concealed weapon were available and already on the scene, “he’d be able to know who it was and, excuse the expression, plug them.”

Johnson also cited a study after last year’s shootings at Virginia Tech that left five dead.

“There were at least 60 different points in the attack where a defender of average skill could have easily neutralized the threat of the active shooter,’’ she said.

“What is worse than allowing an execution-style massacre to continue uncontested?

Greg Fowler of Northern Arizona University said having multiple people armed only will slow police response. He said officers would need to stop and question everyone with a weapon fleeing a building to ensure that the shooter does not also escape.

But Johnson said that argument ignores the reality of situations in which a “lockdown” is ordered because someone on campus is brandishing a gun, leaving teachers and students trapped in their classrooms.

“A crazed person comes through that door, they can protect those students,” Johnson continued. “Otherwise, they’re nothing but sitting ducks.”

Her view was backed by Rick Dalton, a former Mesa police officer who now teaches history at a charter school.

He said allowing teachers to be armed would allow them to “turn the odds” when someone invades a school and starts shooting.

And UA student Jason Lewis, who has a concealed weapons permit, told lawmakers he’s not concerned about the risk of being shot if police burst into a room looking for a shooter. He said it should be “pretty obvious” who is the real assailant.

And if not?

“If the officers are trigger-happy, that’s their problem — and mine,” Lewis said.

Dave Kopp, president of the Arizona Citizens Defense League, said the whole concern about letting people who have concealed weapons permits have their weapons on campus is overblown.

He said 40 states, including Arizona, already let people carry concealed weapons most other places.

“There has not been blood in the streets, there have not been shootouts, people are not gunning each other down,” he said.

 

[buy guns]

Add the example of a shooting that was stopped at a different Virginia university. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818353/posts

If you have time at the end, you should ask them which choice they would rather have:

1. To keep things as they are where guns are banned on campuses. Reality has shown that this does nothing to prevent shootings and ensures the victims cannot fight back.

2. They can allow CCW on campus. Reality has shown that guns in the hands of permit holders has stopped shootings. Reality has also shown, through the example of that school in Utah, that allowing students to carry does not lead to any incidents that are often predicted.

 

[swingpress]

From my point of view it went as well as might be expected.

I abandoned nearly all of what I planned to say at the request of the committee chair who was trying to expedite things. I think that was a mistake even though it had all been previously covered.

I did manage to raise what I thought was a valid question relating to the testimony of much of the opposition, and may have even caused some committee members to consider my point. I also addressed some good points that were missed in a follow-up email.

This was my first experience speaking before the Senate, and I will be much more effective next time. Here is what I learned.

1. I will begin my correspondence by email and send any handouts I would like the committee members to have that way.

2. I will register my position via the "Request to Speak" even if I am unable to attend and at least have my position read into the record. I believe that this is much more effective that just sending a note via email.

3. If speaking, I will not be rushed. These guys work for me.

4. I will follow up via email if a vote is not taken the day of the hearing.

Thanks again to those who provided help with my outline!!

 

[buy guns]

Good job. So what was the question you raised then?

 

[swingpress]

Much of the opposition testimony from LEOs centered around their concern that they might accidentally shoot the wrong guy on entry if they encounter a good guy with a gun.

I questioned that, if that is the case, Are they using proper escalation of force?

In my follow up email I pointed out that I am not familiar with this as a common outcome when a CCW has stopped a robbery etc. at locations other than schools.

 

[Pat-inCO]

If you get pressed for time, mention VERMONT.

In Vermont, if you can legally own a gun, you can carry it - openly or concealed. What is the crime rate in Vermont?

 

[SinistralRifleman]

The whole cops worrying who they need to shoot argument is really silly. With a 5-10 minute police response time, the chances for blue on blue are minimal. Either the active shooter will be dead, or the CCW guy will be dead by the time the cops get there.

 

[jakemccoy]

Excuse me if this advice is beneath you: Time your speech while reading slowly.