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Help me tighten my groups...

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Afy, Sep 14, 2008.

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  1. Afy

    Afy Member

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    Ok this is the result from todays shooting @ 100 meters.
    IMGP0331.jpg

    Now for each of these loads, excluding factory... how much higher and lower do I test. I worked these up using OBT and Quickload, and in the case of the 139 Scenar heresay...
     
  2. rodregier

    rodregier Member

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    The 123 Scenar @ 38.79 N-150 looks good enough for now. Make more of those and get some practice time in.
     
  3. Strongbad

    Strongbad Member

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    Agreed, that's pretty darn good shooting. Depending on how long between shots, try giving more time to cool between shots and see how temp sensitive the gun is.

    Refine your bench technique, the hold, your breathing, etc. to make sure that it's absolutely perfect.

    Tweak the loads... a little more powder, a little less powder. Move the bullet out, move the bullet in, that kind of thing. Only problem is you get down to the hair splitting phase quick! :)

    Finally, tune the gun. Bedding & trigger, that kind of thing.
     
  4. Afy

    Afy Member

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    Its an average of about 1 shot every 30 seconds, and about 5 minutes between groups.

    The trigger is an Accutrigger, that breaks very cleanly and lightly.
    Gun is on an aluminum HS Precision Stock... not much to tune. Barrel is a Walther 27.5 inch 1 in 8.
    At al OAL of 2.864 its about .02 off the lands.
    I am going to be playing with powder and bullet weights 107-140 gr. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2008
  5. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Very good shooting.

    Hard to improve on sub MOA shooting.
     
  6. MarshallDodge

    MarshallDodge Member

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    Are you shooting off a rest or bipod?

    Those look like my groups when I shoot off of a bipod. When I shoot from a sandbag rest they tighten up quite a bit.
     
  7. JFettig

    JFettig Member

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    Move out to 200 yards and see what you can do. I can shoot better MOA at 200 than 100(me, not the rifle or ammo).

    If your shooting from a deadsled and know its the rifle/ammo thats shooting that, you could measure the max OAL and find the optimum jump if any, try lighter loads, hotter loads, lighter bullets, etc. Therse just too many things that you can do. You could go as far as uniforming primer pockets, neck sizing, flash hole uniforming, weighing each case and sorting by weight, etc.

    Jon
     
  8. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Pretty good shooting. Very good really, but if you want to improve.

    Try different O.A.L.'s to see if your rifle has a liking for one. I would try .020 into the lands first if it was me, then just at the lands, then .020 jump to the lands. Your rifle may have a distinct liking for one of them.

    You don't give a load, but I would tweak it up and down after I found the seating depth my rifle liked.

    Order of importance

    Bullet - Find one your barrel likes

    Seating Depth - Find one that bullet and your barrel likes

    Powder & Powder Charge - Find one that combo likes

    Primer - Sometimes they make a difference

    Basically. :)

    Oh, and if you want to shoot better than that consistently, get some wind flags and learn how to use them. ;)
     
  9. dwave

    dwave Member

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    Huge difference sometimes. I had worked up a load for my .303 using Varget with CCI primers. My local "shop" ran out of CCIs so I got federals instead and just used my regular powder charge (only .2 over the min.) and the group sizes doubled! Rifle hated that primer/powder charge combo. SO, moral of this story? Consistency! Stay consistent with the components when working up a load. Same primers, brass trimmed the same, ect. Only change one thing at a time, and if the gun gets better, then go with it, gets worse, ditch it and go back.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2008
  10. 280shooter

    280shooter Member

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    Stay with one brand of brass,one brand of primmers too.check your oal.
    Maybe you can try using your scale for each powder charge,
    Is your scope mounts tight,trigger weight? let your gun cool down between shots,did you clean your bore,Maybe your gun like boattails, maybe it does better with flat base,Only change one thing at a time,and small changes,are the best,
     
  11. rapier5316

    rapier5316 Member

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    Are the cases of a length and the mouths clean and square?

    What sort of runout figures are you getting?

    I am new here, but I have found your thread on the .260. I thought you were dealing with a 6.5 by the bullet weights mentioned.

    Is the 3-9X scope still on it? Personally, my groups shrank with a target/tactical/varmint style scope and reticle. An interim trick is to use the cross hairs as a border on the aiming point. That is to nestle the aiming point in the crotch of the intersection of the cross.
     
  12. Bullet

    Bullet Member

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    Copied from another forum -

    Since you have Quickload I’d recommend starting with one bullet weight. The heaviest one you want to try. See what the MAX load is for this bullet using the powder you want to try. Then reduce the powder charge from MAX by 10% and load 5 cartridges at the lower powder charge (starting load) and continue to load 5 cartridges each at .5 grain increments until you reach the MAX load or see any signs of pressure. Once you’ve shot these , see which powder charge shoots the best and then go back to it and load .2 grains above and below and shoot again to see any improvement. Once the power charge that shoots the best has been found then try different seating depths to see if you get any improvement. I’ve found that the type/brand of powder can make a big difference in group size when using match grade bullets.

    With your new rifle I believe you should see groups less than ½ inch at 100 yards (heck my AR will shoot under ½ inch at 100).
     
  13. Afy

    Afy Member

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    Rapier: All cases are the same length, and squared away.

    I do not own a concentricity guage, so couldnt tell you about run out. However rolling the cartridge ... my guess would be nil.
    3-9x is broken. So replaced with a Weaver 4.5-14x40 from my .300 WM until my Leupold 6.5x20 catches up with me. Might even switch to a Nightforce NF 12-42x56 not sure yet.

    Bullet: Am working up loads now. Will also try to get out to 200 and 300 meters and see what happens.

    Have also ordered an HM Precision Rest.
     
  14. Bullet

    Bullet Member

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    In general longer distances will increase group MOA size. My experience is with more distance you get more effects from the wind, Doesn’t help for shooting little groups.
     
  15. Quigley

    Quigley Member

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    If you are using a bipod, sandbag up a good shooting base and try turning the magnification down on your scope. 6x or less...
     
  16. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Case Prep

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_48/ai_83483904 Great info at this link. Case prep will help most now. Redding full length sizing type S Bushing dies can be used with or without the expander for brass that is unturned or turned. Send 3 fired factory cases from your gun for custom fitting (if the still do that?). Size 1/2 of the neck. Outside neck turning. Uniform flash holes first* then weight and sort NEW UNFIRED brass. competition bullet seating die. 36 power scope or other high power variable. 36 power is almost useless when trying to shoot in conditions with mirage and heat waves, unless your an expert at reading conditions. Wind flags are a must have.
     
  17. Afy

    Afy Member

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    I dont think I am going to go down the route of super prepping the cases at this stage. I already use the Redding dies and am looking around for affoardable Type S competition dies. Alternatively the Forrester Seating die.
    Am still looking for better loads... so am going to go +/- 10 % in .2 gr increments and do the ladder to see what can be eeked out, before going into the super case prep stage.

    In all honesty I rarely get a chance to shoot beyond 300 meters. Maybe a couple of times a year. Not many places to do that around Europe that are easily accessable.
     
  18. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

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    I think that this route is the common sense approach to your fine tuning. The super case prep may give you a tiny edge but requires a lot of time and dedication and IMO, is not the option that you need right now. Load workup and some more break-in time on the barrel will give you the greatest bang for your time invested.

    NCsmitty
     
  19. Strongbad

    Strongbad Member

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    Don't count on it. You may be a step ahead of a wood stock, but remember that the HS stocks come off of an assembly line just like anything else and may be sloppy from time to time. The one on my Mark V Weatherby was and had to be bedded and that's not the only one I've seen like that. Not saying that it'll help one way or the other in your case, just keep it in mind. :)
     
  20. Eric F

    Eric F Member

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    Hey folks your missing the most important thing in getting tighter groups..................GET CLOSER TO THE TARGET!!!:neener:
     
  21. Bullet

    Bullet Member

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    Quigley

    Why do you recommend 6x or less?


    .
     
  22. tbtrout

    tbtrout Member

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    I would leave the load alone and work on breathing and trigger control.


    Good shooting
     
  23. cliffy

    cliffy member

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    12x to 20x

    I'm now spoiled at 20x, with 24x to go. Seeing is incredible: holding is another story. How could I miss the entire target on the second shot? After walking up to the target, I saw I didn't actually miss. 6x is great at 50 yards off-hand, but 100 yards off a bench loves a 20x scope. My eyes have incredibly improved since my cataract surgery, but I take nothing for granted. 12x is excellent for 100 yard shooting, but 16x is better, as apparently is 20x. Tomorrow, is range day again after the aftermath of IKE, the rainmaker. My back yard may be underwater, but I hope the range is walkable without hipboots. I can barely see the 3" target at 4x, but my eyes are better than ever. cliffy
     
  24. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    High magnification is hard to use offhand, but you can't beat it from a rest for shooting tight groups.
     
  25. Bullet

    Bullet Member

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    On my 2 best shooting rifles, one has a 6x18 scope the other is a 6.5x20. I think my next scope will be a fixed power 35 or 40. The X in F-class targets are hard to see.
     
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