Help me with this gun control argument

[jim in Anchorage]

Thats like saying adding a bedroom to your house is the same as going in the basement and reworking and fine-tuning the foundation with some tools and new material to ensure the new bedroom has a solid foundation under it."

Fine tune your own bill of rights. Mine works great.

I do indeed believe that society changes over time changes in laws and regulation must reflection those changes. I think history has proven that point time and time again.

I'm glad you feel the right of self defense is a ever changing issue. Do not force that on me.

This is a dead end point, felons will not be given the legal rights to own firearms anytime in my lifetime. The other issues under debate here might very well be voted upon by the government but not gun rights for felons.

That whole statement made me think of a Tory saying the colonials will never overthrow the crown. Did you predict in 1987 how many more states would have CC 20 years latter,or that the AWB would be allowed to sunset?
Oh by the way I am not a felon,nor do I know any. It is a matter of respecting the bill of rights.

 

[Ruggles]

"So there is nobody body in jail as I type in this who is only there because they were a convicted felon and were caught with a gun which was illegal for them to have? Really?
Can you cite a single instance?

As a generall rule the only reason they tack on gun charges is to ad to the time the bad guy's looking at when they start to plea bargin.


Quote:
And yes gun laws do have a success rate( again greatly debatable how much) in keeping guns out of the hands of criminals

Cite

Common sense again.....read what I wrote and then read what you wrote and tell me you still require proof that no one in in jail based on illegal weapon charges in this country. Or that some thug can not legally buy a gun therefore does not have one right now.

Really?

If you want to say they (gun laws) are not very effective I would agree but to say they are not effective at all is dishonest.

 

[Ruggles]

"My observation is this. It seems that a great many of my supposed allies in this forum have lost sight of the reason for the 2nd Amendment - to keep in check tyranny whether from abroad or internal."

Where did I imply anything differently. Sane gun laws do not hinder my ability to do this in the least. I can legally buy a multitude of weapons to do just that.

 

[Rockwell1]

I think Ruggles is getting off on getting people all stirred up ( IOW I think he's a troll) I'm done feeding him.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Now you have been reduced to quoting yourself. Try several online names in the future. Ruggles quoting Ruggles seems to lose some credibility

 

[Ruggles]

"Fine tune your own bill of rights. Ours works great."

Fixed it. It's our not yours. We have the right to debate it and the right to change it as a society.

"I'm glad you feel the right of self defense is a ever changing issue. Do not force that on me."

How is your right to self defense any different than it was 230+ years ago? Other than they had single shot muskets and you can legally buy a semi auto (or auto) AR15 with a 100 drum magazine if you want. I do not see anything negative regarding your defense being forced upon you.

"That whole statement made me think of a Tory saying the colonials will never overthrow the crown. Did you predict in 1987 how many more states would have CC 20 years latter,or that the AWB would be allowed to sunset?"

Issues regarding non-convicted felons, different animal altogether. I support and have a CCW and I do not support the old or a new AWB. I am not going to support gun rights for felons. I think mine is the common position on that.

 

[danprkr]

Back to point for a minute.

Shall we get back on point for a moment? Said point being how to help cbrgator with his ongoing debate with legaleagle03. I went to his youtube chanel and my only question is this - the man won't show his face on you tube so how is he going to have the guts to face up to the responsibility of defending himself or his values?

Here again I'll quote from memory with no attribution since I can't remember, "There is none so blind as he who will not see." Sorry, but I just don't see how to help this guy. I'd like to, but some people just won't see.

Sorry to digress to the original question, but I felt obligated to throw my 2-cents worth in there.

 

[Ruggles]

" think Ruggles is getting off on getting people all stirred up ( IOW I think he's a troll) I'm done feeding him."

I seemed to have gotten almost 5 whole people all stirred up, wow look at me go. Surprising how much a few honest points can stir up people who are at the far extreme of an issue. The far extreme antis see no legit purpose for any firearms and the far extreme pro gun people see no reason for any gun laws.

As usual the truth lies in the middle.

 

[Ruggles]

"Now you have been reduced to quoting yourself. Try several online names in the future."

I have no ideal what you are referring to. Please explain.

 

[Ruggles]

On second thought I bow out but I will say that I am progun and if your hardline extreme stances do not sway me how do you think they will work on fence sitters or antis?

Say what you will but the fence sitters thru their votes will determine the future of the 2ndA in this country. The pros and the antis have already made up their minds. We had better be abel to sway the fence sitters to our side and things such as guns for felons and removing background checks are not going to do that.

 

[danprkr]

It ain't my Bill of Rights

Ruggles it ain't my Bill of Rights to change, nor is it yours - it was granted us by God. At least if you believe what the Declaration of Independence says about the issue. With that in mind, unless you have a line to the divine that the rest of us don't leave my rights alone.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

I think Ruggles is getting off on getting people all stirred up ( IOW I think he's a troll) I'm done feeding him.

Agree. I think he was bounced from his HS debate club,and is taking it out on the internet.

 

[danprkr]

"Say what you will but the fence sitters thru their votes will determine the future of the 2ndA in this country. The pros and the antis have already made up their minds. We had better be abel to sway the fence sitters to our side and things such as guns for felons and removing background checks are not going to do that."

Sadly, I think this is one thing we agree on. The fence sitting, unthinking masses will sway the issue. At least until it is time to act physically.

That is the way it happened in the 18th century. Most Americans were neutral, it took the (as they would be called today) 'radical right' to Declare, Fight for, and GAIN our independence despite the apathy of the middle, and resistance from 'loyalist.' I just hope it doesn't come to that again.

Unfortunately, I feel that having led the horse of America to water of liberty it has had it's fill, and is content to graze in the desolation of tyranny until thirst once again spurs it to action. I just hope that the action comes peacefully in elections, not at the barrel of a gun.

Having said that, whichever way it happens I know which side I'll be on.

 

[Rockwell1]

it was granted us by God. At least if you believe what the Declaration of Independence says about the issue.

Our freedoms were granted to us by God whether or not you believe what the Declaration of Independence says about the issue.

Sorry, I had to say that

 

[jaybr]

Originally posted by RugerNut9
And I am sorry to bring this into the thread but what the heck is the deal with not being allowed to buy more than one handgun a month?? I mean if I can afford two does that not help the economy more?

I beleive that law stemmed from problems in the 80s where people where buying lots of handguns in VA and driving them up 95 to NY as selling them on the streets. At least NY claimed that a high percentage of their guns came from VA. The simple way around that law is to get your CWP, with CWP there is no limit on how many handguns you can purchase per month/day.

Originally posted by Rockwell1
Can you cite a single instance?

As a generall rule the only reason they tack on gun charges is to ad to the time the bad guy's looking at when they start to plea bargin.

In the late 80's and early 90's Richmond VA had extremely high murder rates, it was in the top 5 in the US multiple years. In 1997 they started "Project Exile"

• 
  Project Exile mandates a 5 year prison sentence without possibility of probation or parole for felons caught in possession of a firearm.

• Project Exile mandates a 15 year prison sentence without possibility of probation or parole for felons caught in possession of a firearm during the commission of a crime.

• The crime rate in Richmond, VA dropped by 55% in less than a year.

• Hundreds convicted and serving their sentence

 

[LAK]

Ned Kelly

Who is insane? Who would get to set the guidelines?

Why should a felon who has served his time be denied the right to life? or denied the right to bear arms?

He is one of the people isn't he.

What you get is that everytime something happens we want to find a niche of people to declare scapegoats for the problem. Deny them so long as we can keep ours.

First it was felons and people in a mental institution. Then it became people who were charged with domestic violence. Now it's people with Post traumatic stress disorder, bipolar, depression and any number of psychological disorders.

This list will continue to grow until no one can own a gun but a "perfect citizen"

Yes; the "perfect citizen".

And this is the utopian driving force in the "reasonable control" promotion.

It is no good trying to appease false notions among those who need to be turned. It is a matter of what is right, just and in accordance with our law - the Constitution. This is what needs to be communicated and understood.

What needs to be addressed is the judiciary and the penal system. Not "gun controls". This can be soundly framed in the historical context in this country and example in every other civilized western nation; we did not have a fraction of the "problem" people we have now either incarcerated or roaming our streets.

A further example can be taken from countries that still use corporal punishment along with hard labor and incarceration.

That is the issue here, rather than creating a second class of "citizen" who really has nothing substantial to gain by going straight, and evidently many who do not particularly fear the penalties of crimes against persons in this country.

The other issue is victimless "crimes".

 

[sernv99]

Our freedoms were granted to us by God whether or not you believe what the Declaration of Independence says about the issue.

...and here is the second reason why our gun rights get attacked by the anti-gun folks....preaching about how "God" gave us the RKBA You do know that talking about how "God" granted you your rights will NOT support your argument in a RKBA debate.

get on topic and use non-trivial arguments to support your case.....

 

[sernv99]

I think Ruggles is getting off on getting people all stirred up ( IOW I think he's a troll) I'm done feeding him.

umm, ok, I have seen you type this same thing over and over again whenever you can't get your point across makes me wonder if you have any argument to begin with

 

[Harve Curry]

Ruggles and et al ,
You are a compromiser. Sometimes that ain't all bad. But, on this it is bad. We have been compromising our Rights away for decades. We're on the losing end. Compromise after compromise, it a vicious circle that bites you in the behind. Pretty soon where are you? What have you got left of the original Right that was recognized and garaunteed to you in the Bill of Rights??

The Constitution and Bill of Rights is not a living trust you can mold or change the meaning of. You are dangerously wrong there.

It's like having a Warranty Deed to your property and along comes some new guy and says you cannot do or have something on your place that you have had for , say, generations. There are no deed restrictions recorded, nothing. But they sue you and take you to court anyway. You have to defend yourself, and hire expensive lawyers. The judge orders you to mediation. Costs are rising and you start participate in the negotiations, compromise. Pretty soon you have settled or maybe not. The threat of a long drawn out legal battle hurts you financially. So you sell yourself out by compromising. Even though you had this Warranty Deed with out restrictions or covenants.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights is and was supposed to be solid. The Foundation of our Country.

The first time I heard the flexible frame work, like a living trust bull$it was from Bill Clinton. I wouldn't want to be aligned with that rascal.

Quit trading off and compromising our Rights away for permits, licenses, fees, expiration dates, sin taxes, purcase limits, waiting periods, etc, when you do have the documents , history, and precendents to fight it.

 

[Husaberg Man]

"If they are inherently dangerous individuals, why are they out of prison? Even if they are released under the auspice of the Eighth Amendment, surely there were some identifiable aggravating factors which could have incapacitated a specific individual for a longer period of time. If we shouldn't trust them with a gun, should we trust them with a car? a kitchen knife?

The same questions could apply to the mentally ill."

Frequently, people are released from prison early because there is no room left in the prison. Yeah, we can (and do) build more prisons, but so far that has not given us the abililty to keep everyone incarcerated for the terms of original sentences.

Not all states remove voting rights for convicted felons. Texas is one of them, and I support that. As with gun rights, just because you have "paid your debt to society," you don't automatically get a reset button for your life. Choices have consequences.

As far as repaying debts to society, ask the victims if they think the convicts have repaid the debts owed them.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Is there some new legislation in the works
to undo the NICS check?

 

[Ned Kelly]

I seemed to have gotten almost 5 whole people all stirred up, wow look at me go. Surprising how much a few honest points can stir up people who are at the far extreme of an issue. The far extreme antis see no legit purpose for any firearms and the far extreme pro gun people see no reason for any gun laws.

As usual the truth lies in the middle.

I'm not stirred up at all. If I were I would PM you. I however like several am certian you are simply trolling and probably shown some false information about yourself to justify your "middle ground" argument. Which to me is an anti-gun argument plain and simple.

The reason why I believe of a certianty you are trolling is that you have refused to back up your claims with sources despite being asked several times. You continually double post and most of your responses are not to argue your point but to attempt to inflame the others in this thread.

I have yet to see any evidence that denying x-cons who have served their parole the right to bear arms has reduced crime unless you have something to back your claim up.

Nor have I ever seen any evidence to suggest keeping guns out of the hands of people with mental disorders has reduced the crime rate either.

You need to show some empirecal evidence to back your claim up. Or you are just spamming and trolling.

I am sure in time your argument will eventually cause laws to be passed that will eventually disarm 80 percent of the US population.

 

[jaybr]

Originally posted by Ned Kelly
I have yet to see any evidence that denying x-cons who have served their parole the right to bear arms has reduced crime unless you have something to back your claim up.

Did you not see my post above?

Project Excile - strick penalties for convicted felons with guns reduced the crime rate 55% the first year.

The results of that effort are proof enough for me that keeping guns out of the hands of convicted felons has significant effect on the crime rate.

Google "Project Exile" and read up on it and make your own opinion.

BTW: I agree with most of you that they should remain in prison until they are no longer a threat, but that just doesn't happen.

 

[Harve Curry]

Well then we need to work together on correcting the prison system rather then being divided compromising our Rights away.

 

[Ruggles]

"Nor have I ever seen any evidence to suggest keeping guns out of the hands of people with mental disorders has reduced the crime rate either."

Oh good Lord.......I am speechless........