Help: Need an estimate for this M4 Variant.

[Retro]

Pictures are here:

http://www.pbase.com/refweqe/inbox

So I was window-shopping at the local gun-show today, and I came across this used M4 variant with a receiver made by Sendra with stainless bolt and removable handle as well as collapsible stock. I was told that the receiver was pre-ban, which I thought he was referring to the battle-characteristic assualt weapon ban (the bayonet lug and high cap mag) but he said it referred to something else about full-auto conversion... which I was kinda clueless about since this rifle is semi-auto.

New DPMS 14.5 1/7 twist chromed heavy barrel with 2'' permanent flash
DPMAS Upper receiver
DPMS Chromed BCG and blued bolt
Pre-ban Sendra Lower Receiver
3-position Stock

It came with 4 used 30rd magazine with a lot of dirt and sand on it... the seller said the sand is probably Iraqi sand... which I doubted.


I won't tell you how much I paid for this because I don't want to influence your estimate.

I am kinda clueless about M4/M16/AR15 type of 223 rifles, and this was a impulsive buy.

Inputs will be appreciated.

 

[plexreticle]

Good god. You would think the seller would run that thing under a faucet before he put it up for sale.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It is a pre-ban receiver and you were correct that it referred to the assault weapons ban and means absolutely nothing now (other than its an old receiver) unless you live in New York or another state with its own AWB.

a3 or a2

It has a detachable carry handle so it is a flattop. Some manufacturers refer to flattops as "A3", though technically, the actual M16A3 has the same sights as the M16A2. You will also see it called A4 which is probably more correct.

As to value? Sendra is an old receiver. The company that made it has been defunct for almost ten years now and its two spin off companies are Model 1 and M&A. Sendra is also a guarantee that the gun is a used Frankengun (which is further confirmed by the BCG).

The bolt carrier group is probably chromed and not stainless steel; because a stainless steel bolt isn't strong enough to work in an AR15. The BCG has an unshrouded firing pin, so it isn't one of the top tier BCGs like Young. The seller probably paid extra for that feature; but I personally don't consider it desirable and probably wouldn't pay the markup.

So personally, I would probably consider it a decent deal at about $600 with the mags if it is in good condition. I would probably be willing to go a bit higher than that depending on who made the barrel and how it looks (or if I lived in a pre-ban state).

Anything more than that and I start reaching the price range where I can assemble my own rifle new from comparable components.

 

[Third_Rail]

...a stainless steel bolt isn't strong enough to work in an AR15...

It would be if it were made out of proper steel. Unfortunately, steels strong enough to do that are also really, really expensive. Think $500+ for a BC!

 

[Retro]

bore is brand new and chromed, and I have attached pictures of the BCG... it might be chromed and not stainless....

And what is a Frankengun?

The seller told me that the receiver is old but the gun was put together with other new parts like the BCG and the barrel, and it is possible to convert to full-auto with this receiver if one has the proper approved ATF papers.

 

[Chris Rhines]

...because a stainless steel bolt isn't strong enough to work in an AR15.

Completely untrue. The JP TOS bolt carrier is machined out of 416 stainless steel and is arguably the best bolt carrier on the market. I have run thousands of rounds through mine. It didn't cost anywhere near $500, either.

The pictured bolt carrier is not a JP, though. It's a no-name chromed carrier, which is not a selling point.

- Chris

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Completely untrue. The JP TOS bolt carrier is machined out of 416 stainless steel

Please note I said stainless steel bolt. You can have a stainless steel bolt carrier because it is subject to less stress. A stainless steel bolt would not handle either heat or stress well - which is not a problem here as it is just a generic bolt.

It's a no-name chromed carrier, which is not a selling point.

Agreed.

And what is a Frankengun?

Frankengun is just a name for a gun put together using parts from various vendors.

The seller told me that the receiver is old but the gun was put together with other new parts like the BCG and the barrel, and it is possible to convert to full-auto with this receiver if one has the proper approved ATF papers.

Well, the BCG is not first rate. It isn't horrible; it is just typical of the cheaper chromed carriers sold by the various kit houses. There should be markings stamped somewhere on the barrel. They are usually on top of the barrel close to the front sight base. What are those markings? That will tell us more about the value of the rifle.

As far as "possible to convert to full-auto", the seller probably meant that it didn't have a shelf inside that stopped you from using a registered drop-in auto-sear. This is a nice feature; but not an uncommon one and true of most lower receivers on the market. As far as converting the actual receiver by using M16 parts - that would be illegal unless the gun was registered as a machinegun with the ATF prior to 1986 - and I strongly doubt that is the case here since the lower receiver doesn't have the hole for the autosear pin drilled. If it was an NFA-registered receiver, then the price would be more in the $10-12k range.

 

[Retro]

Oh, I went back and checked, the BCG has "D" stamped on the L side, and that is all the markings.

The seller also said something about a "heavy barrel"...

 

[Onmilo]

Try as you may, try as you might,
you can't legally bring an M16 home,
from the big fight,,,,,,,,,

Stainless steel carriers are routinely paired with Match tolerence chromed steel bolts in AR15 target grade rifles.
Value of this particular weapon would be based on the sum of the quality of the parts it was assembled with and if there is even a hint of possibility that this weapon could fire more than a single shot with one pull of the trigger I would suggest that you do not even put fingerprints on it if you are not a current class 3 dealer.

 

[Retro]

haha... I have not fired this baby yet... but I am 100% sure that it is not a full-auto.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Oh, I went back and checked, the BCG has "D" stamped on the L side, and that is all the markings.

The BCG is a chromed DPMS bolt carrier group. You shouldn't have any trouble with it. DPMS did have some issues with their chromed bolts; but your bolt is not chromed.

Have you looked at the barrel and there were no markings? Generally, a generic barrel without markings is not something that will increase value, even if the barrel is pretty good.

The seller also said something about a "heavy barrel"...

Well, your barrel has an M4 cut - which is usually not a heavy barrel profile unless the manufacturer decided to save to machining steps by not machining under the handguards. What does it look like under the handguards? Can you take a picture?

I have not fired this baby yet... but I am 100% sure that it is not a full-auto.

It would have a hard time going full-auto without the autosear (no pin hole) and with the unshrouded carrier. It does have an M16 hammer in it though - just so you know. That won't make it a machinegun; but it does make it easier for other parts malfunctioning to let it go full auto. Generally if you are going to run an unshrouded firing pin BCG, the M16 hammer is a better choice though because it doesn't catch the firing pin collar.

 

[Retro]

Thanks bart.

I looked into the underside of the handguard (could not figure out how to take it apart)... and so, I shined a flashlight into it, and the barrel reads:

DPMS Cal 5.56 1-7

So this gun has DPMS barrel, steel bolt, and DPMS Chromed BCG, the upper has a logo that looked like a H with an triangular dot on it, and Sendra Receiver.

The seller said it is a good gun because it has a heavy barrel... I only know Remington 700 has two versions, i.e. heavy barrel and regular barrel, didn't know M4 has those also.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

A "real" M4 barrel profile would be lightweight under the handguards (0.625" IIRC) and heavy forward of the front sight base. The barrel markings indicate you have a DPMS barrel. While that may not add any value to the rifle, my experience is that DPMS does barrels very well and often produce barrels with good accuracy.

Overall, my original estimate holds. $700 would be a fair price; but on the high side.

 

[Retro]

yeah, it was $750... and with everything, I paid $800.

Thanks Bart for the estimate! I don't feel too bad now.