Help! Savage 116 or Weatherby Vanguard Wilderness?

[JeffRaines]

Hey guys,

Long time lurker. So I've got a dilemma, I'm between these two rifles because I just 'need' another one! I've decided on 30-06 for the chambering. Now, I know both of these companies have a pretty good following and reputation. However, the Weatherby I haven't been able to read many reviews on. The regular vanguard, sure, but not the wilderness. I love the way it looks, and if the stock is similar to the one on the regular Vanguard, I liked it when I picked it up.

If I were to go with the Savage I'd likely get the package rifle and just upgrade the stock due to the price of the package vs. one of the other 116 models.

Before anyone mentions Tikka, I have two already and I like them, but I really miss having a two stage trigger. So, this rifle will end up filling that want for me.

I'm really hoping to hear from someone who has owned a Weatherby Vanguard Wilderness to see if they liked it. I'm also open to other suggestions, given they have a two stage trigger and are within this price range.

Thanks guys!

edit: I guess I should really mention that I'm looking to hunt with the rifle. Thanks again.

 

[Morrey]

Jeff, this particular model is pretty new so I didn't get many members weighing in on it as I have been asking feedback as well. Seems most suggest Tikka which I was not interested in.

So, despite lack of Vanguard Wilderness owner feedback, I am gambling and ordered this gun and waiting for it to come in. I am banking on their .99 MOA accuracy guarantee and the two stage trigger. We shall see.

*My local gun store undercut Buds price and sold me the gun for $725 plus sales tax. I felt this was a good price based on the $999 msrp.

 

[horsey300]

Don't have the wilderness, but the original vanguard trigger is what I weigh other triggers against, so simple and sweet, adjusted it to 2.75 no problems in 10 years, similarly savage triggers are good and weatherby uses howa actions on these vanguards, howa has the h.a.c.t. two stage trigger on their m1500s. I sincerely wish I had more first hand experience with the wilderness as that would mean another great addition but alas that will be another day I fear.

 

[JeffRaines]

Jeff, this particular model is pretty new so I didn't get many members weighing in on it as I have been asking feedback as well. Seems most suggest Tikka which I was not interested in.

So, despite lack of Vanguard Wilderness owner feedback, I am gambling and ordered this gun and waiting for it to come in. I am banking on their .99 MOA accuracy guarantee and the two stage trigger. We shall see.

*My local gun store undercut Buds price and sold me the gun for $725 plus sales tax. I felt this was a good price based on the $999 msrp.

Keep me updated as it seems I might end up taking the plunge on one myself eventually!

Edit - Make no mistake the tikkas are nice. Both of the tikkas I have shoot lights out, buttery smooth actions. I think it's a lot of gun for the money but I just want a two stage trigger. I learned to shoot on an accutrigger and I'm really missing that.

 

[jmr40]

To be honest I've not handled the Vanguard Wilderness. But I've owned and handled quite a few standard models and I'd pick the Savage between the 2. And I don't particularly like Savage.

I've spent 40 years chasing lightweight, accurate rifles to use in rugged terrain. I've found a rifle that weighs 7.25-7.5 lbs including scope and mounts is just about perfect. Once you get below about 6.5 lbs scoped the disadvantages start hurting more the weight savings. There is no reason to go over 7.75-8 lbs for general use.

But where the weight reduction comes from is more important than the actual weight. The Vanguards are excellent rifles, but a poor platform to build a lightweight from. Their actions are the heaviest made. Kimbers are the lightest factory action with Savage, Tikka and Remington coming in next. The weight reduction on a Vanguard must come from thinner barrels which hurt accuracy and balance.

I'd bet money the actual weight difference in the stocks is within 2 oz and I'd not be surprised if the factory Savage stock isn't lighter. I've weighed a few stocks including the one on the Vanguard. While I haven't actually weighed the Savage stock I've weighed enough of the factory plastic stocks to know most are about the same weight or lighter than the B&C stocks.

The online specs say the Savage is 6.9 lbs, the Vanguard 6.75 I don't think you'll notice .15 lbs weight difference. The Savage will most likely have the heavier, stiffer barrel and be more accurate. Assuming the same scope and mounts you can keep either well under 7.75 lbs ready to hunt and if you choose carefully closer to 7.5 lbs. I wouldn't sacrifice accuracy for such a small weight difference. This is where the Tikka's you own excell. The rifles themselves are very light, but they don't sacrifice barrel weight to get the weight reduction. It comes from the action and stock.

Another consideration. I'd be strongly considering 308 instead of 30-06 in a lighter rifle. The short action will save you 3-4 oz over a long action for even more weight reduction. You're looking at about 15%-20% less recoil which becomes a factor in lighter rifles. A 308 will shoot the same bullet weights about 3%-4% slower than 30-06. No game animal will ever notice.

 

[Morrey]

Keep me updated as it seems I might end up taking the plunge on one myself eventually!

Edit - Make no mistake the tikkas are nice. Both of the tikkas I have shoot lights out, buttery smooth actions. I think it's a lot of gun for the money but I just want a two stage trigger. I learned to shoot on an accutrigger and I'm really missing that.

Jeff, I'll be sure to post back. JMR40 has good feedback to consider.

The Wilderness has a two stage trigger that is so important to me. I have shot Anschutz bench rifles for so long that I just have a fix on that feel. Various features are important to us individually, and to me, the trigger is the driving force. Sure I could drop in a replacement trigger and be happy. Well, that's another $150 to add. Weatherby already took care of that hassle for me. (Plus one)

The barrel is fluted and I find that appealing. My Cooper custom rifle barrels are fluted and I like that look, feel and performance. (plus two)

The stock may be considered by critics to be a weak platform. Interesting to think of an alumimun bedded block as weak but everyone has an opinion. BUT, the real kicker is Weatherby has a written guarantee that this rifle is a sub 1 MOA shooter. I do some really quality precision reloading and fully expect to be well under one MOA. If not, I talked to Weatherby before the order, and they told me they'd either fix the gun, adjust/tune the gun or replace the gun if I wasn't under 1 MOA. (plus 3)

So, I really didn't feel I have much to lose on this venture. Once I mount my Zeiss (I ordered rings today) and do an initial load development, I'll get back with you. And believe me, if this gun is not up to my standards, I'll be the first to admit the mistake.

 

[JeffRaines]

To be honest I've not handled the Vanguard Wilderness. But I've owned and handled quite a few standard models and I'd pick the Savage between the 2. And I don't particularly like Savage.

I've spent 40 years chasing lightweight, accurate rifles to use in rugged terrain. I've found a rifle that weighs 7.25-7.5 lbs including scope and mounts is just about perfect. Once you get below about 6.5 lbs scoped the disadvantages start hurting more the weight savings. There is no reason to go over 7.75-8 lbs for general use.

But where the weight reduction comes from is more important than the actual weight. The Vanguards are excellent rifles, but a poor platform to build a lightweight from. Their actions are the heaviest made. Kimbers are the lightest factory action with Savage, Tikka and Remington coming in next. The weight reduction on a Vanguard must come from thinner barrels which hurt accuracy and balance.

I'd bet money the actual weight difference in the stocks is within 2 oz and I'd not be surprised if the factory Savage stock isn't lighter. I've weighed a few stocks including the one on the Vanguard. While I haven't actually weighed the Savage stock I've weighed enough of the factory plastic stocks to know most are about the same weight or lighter than the B&C stocks.

The online specs say the Savage is 6.9 lbs, the Vanguard 6.75 I don't think you'll notice .15 lbs weight difference. The Savage will most likely have the heavier, stiffer barrel and be more accurate. Assuming the same scope and mounts you can keep either well under 7.75 lbs ready to hunt and if you choose carefully closer to 7.5 lbs. I wouldn't sacrifice accuracy for such a small weight difference. This is where the Tikka's you own excell. The rifles themselves are very light, but they don't sacrifice barrel weight to get the weight reduction. It comes from the action and stock.

Another consideration. I'd be strongly considering 308 instead of 30-06 in a lighter rifle. The short action will save you 3-4 oz over a long action for even more weight reduction. You're looking at about 15%-20% less recoil which becomes a factor in lighter rifles. A 308 will shoot the same bullet weights about 3%-4% slower than 30-06. No game animal will ever notice.

The one thing I hated about the Savage I owned was the stock. If I purchased a Savage, that would be the first thing to go. They aren't very stiff at all, if I remember correctly they're more limber than the synthetic stock on the Tikka I have which isn't very limber at all.

I do know about the weight and recoil considerations... a buddy of mine has a Savage Axis II in '06, the thing weighs some 6lbs with a scope and let me tell you, even shooting 150s that thing is NOT enjoyable to shoot. As far as weight goes, as long as its 8lbs or around there I'm okay with it, I just don't want a 9-10lb rifle.

I guess I should mention that I reload as well in regards to cartridges.

Thanks!

 

[JeffRaines]

Jeff, I'll be sure to post back. JMR40 has good feedback to consider.

The Wilderness has a two stage trigger that is so important to me. I have shot Anschutz bench rifles for so long that I just have a fix on that feel. Various features are important to us individually, and to me, the trigger is the driving force. Sure I could drop in a replacement trigger and be happy. Well, that's another $150 to add. Weatherby already took care of that hassle for me. (Plus one)

The barrel is fluted and I find that appealing. My Cooper custom rifle barrels are fluted and I like that look, feel and performance. (plus two)

The stock may be considered by critics to be a weak platform. Interesting to think of an alumimun bedded block as weak but everyone has an opinion. BUT, the real kicker is Weatherby has a written guarantee that this rifle is a sub 1 MOA shooter. I do some really quality precision reloading and fully expect to be well under one MOA. If not, I talked to Weatherby before the order, and they told me they'd either fix the gun, adjust/tune the gun or replace the gun if I wasn't under 1 MOA. (plus 3)

So, I really didn't feel I have much to lose on this venture. Once I mount my Zeiss (I ordered rings today) and do an initial load development, I'll get back with you. And believe me, if this gun is not up to my standards, I'll be the first to admit the mistake.

I'm looking forward to seeing your review. As this isn't a gun that I desperately need I've got time to wait on deals and reviews. I wish I had a place nearby that had both in stock so I could play with them side by side!

 

[Plainshunter1]

I can't comment on the specific Vanguard model, so this may be of no help, but comparing my brother's Vanguard to my Savage, I noticed a few things. The Weatherby is "better built" as far as fit and finish and the stock feels 10x better on the Weatherby. It's sturdy and well sculpted but not free floated on the base models like the Savage. Might be on this model. The Savage is a little cheaper considering it's the same price as the weatherby but comes with a Nikon Prostaff. The Weatherby is heavier but it shows in the quality. The Weatherby action is a bit smoother and more streamlined, but the Savage may be a shade more accurate.

 

[Inebriated]

I've got a .30-06 111 with steel bottom metal and a B&C Medalist, and it's an outstanding shooter. 8 pounds flat with an empty mag and a Leupold FX-II 4x33 on top in Leupold mounts. Not a lightweight, but doesn't shoot like one either. Very comfortable on the shoulder.

Would I take it before a Vanguard Wilderness? Probably, since I know my particular rifle shoots well, feeds reliably, and is comfortable as outfitted. I do think you get a nicer action from Weatherby, and I think the triggers are fine on either one. So, kind of a toss-up for me. If you do go Savage, you'll most likely want to upgrade to a steel bottom metal along with the stock, and you'll be adding approximately $150 or so to the stock. I can't remember exactly how much I spent, but it was in that ballpark. The steel both added rigidity to the stock, as well as fixed the reliability issues I had with the crappy polymer bottom "metal" in the factory stock.

I wouldn't overlook Kimber, either. The .30-06 Montana is on my short list as a replacement for the Savage.

And a note on B&C stocks, jumping off Morrey's comment. They're not McMillan stocks. You can make them flex and nearly touch the barrel, but they're not going to do it easily. They're not going to flex in-hand, off a pack, or off bags the way polymer stocks can, and they feel much more rigid in-hand. Their weakness is with bipod use. They're not rigid enough to load up on a bipod and get the same consistency as with a stiffer stock, hence a good portion of the disdain for them in the precision rifle community. For hunting stocks, they are absolutely 100% upgrades from injection molded polymer, in my opinion. I have two, both of which provided a smoother/softer recoil impulse, better accuracy from the ability to get consistent action screw torque (also aided by having steel bottom metal vs. polymer), and an all-around nicer feel. No complaints on my end.

 

[C-grunt]

Just looked up that new Weatherby. That is a really good looking rifle.

I dont think you could go wrong with either one. Ive had a few Savages over the years and all have been outstanding shooters. Only problem was the cheap plastic stocks. Once that is replaced the rifle instantly becomes twice the rifle it was before.

 

[Glockula]

I have a Weatherby Vanguard vgx in .270 win a day two savages a 10 and an Axis. Neither of the savages hold a candle to the Weatherby out of the box. The savage is a great action but I would go Weatherby every time. Is she a little heavy, absolutely! It hasn't mattered much to me.

 

[JeffRaines]

I've got a .30-06 111 with steel bottom metal and a B&C Medalist, and it's an outstanding shooter. 8 pounds flat with an empty mag and a Leupold FX-II 4x33 on top in Leupold mounts. Not a lightweight, but doesn't shoot like one either. Very comfortable on the shoulder.

Would I take it before a Vanguard Wilderness? Probably, since I know my particular rifle shoots well, feeds reliably, and is comfortable as outfitted. I do think you get a nicer action from Weatherby, and I think the triggers are fine on either one. So, kind of a toss-up for me. If you do go Savage, you'll most likely want to upgrade to a steel bottom metal along with the stock, and you'll be adding approximately $150 or so to the stock. I can't remember exactly how much I spent, but it was in that ballpark. The steel both added rigidity to the stock, as well as fixed the reliability issues I had with the crappy polymer bottom "metal" in the factory stock.

I wouldn't overlook Kimber, either. The .30-06 Montana is on my short list as a replacement for the Savage.

And a note on B&C stocks, jumping off Morrey's comment. They're not McMillan stocks. You can make them flex and nearly touch the barrel, but they're not going to do it easily. They're not going to flex in-hand, off a pack, or off bags the way polymer stocks can, and they feel much more rigid in-hand. Their weakness is with bipod use. They're not rigid enough to load up on a bipod and get the same consistency as with a stiffer stock, hence a good portion of the disdain for them in the precision rifle community. For hunting stocks, they are absolutely 100% upgrades from injection molded polymer, in my opinion. I have two, both of which provided a smoother/softer recoil impulse, better accuracy from the ability to get consistent action screw torque (also aided by having steel bottom metal vs. polymer), and an all-around nicer feel. No complaints on my end.

The Kimber is a bit above what I'm willing to spend, and from what I hear they have some problems with those as well. Sexy guns though.

The thing that kills me about most stocks are the price. Those synthetic stocks ala B&C, etc are around 300. I'm thinking if I go savage I might just go with a Boyd's or similar.

I may also consider just going with the regular weatherguard, but then weight starts to creep up. Aw man, I don't know.

 

[Inebriated]

The Kimber is a bit above what I'm willing to spend, and from what I hear they have some problems with those as well. Sexy guns though.

The thing that kills me about most stocks are the price. Those synthetic stocks ala B&C, etc are around 300. I'm thinking if I go savage I might just go with a Boyd's or similar.

I may also consider just going with the regular weatherguard, but then weight starts to creep up. Aw man, I don't know.

Boyd's are heavy. I hunted with one for a couple seasons, and though pretty well-made, they're kind of bulbous and slick. You can certainly add checkering for grip, a nice recoil pad instead of the standard paper thin recoil pad, and walnut rather than laminate for weight savings, but... cost. Pricing it real quick for walnut, checkering, and a pachmayr pad, you're literally $20 less than I pid for my B&C's ($250 Boyd's, $270 B&C).

For my dollars, the B&C just feels more worth it than a $100 basic Boyd's or a more expensive upgraded model. Just my opinion, of course, value is always subjective.






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[JeffRaines]

Update: I placed an order for a Weatherby Wilderness in 30-06 yesterday. I will post a review thread with pictures once it comes in! Or maybe Morrey will post one and I can just piggyback on that one(since he is also getting one)?