If you have a dealer in CNY or WNY, let me know. I'd pay 100 bucks to try a new lower. I want to build a 300 AAC blackout and this would be a good reason.
Help us test a polymer AR-15 Lower
- Thread starter NewFrontierArmory
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I offered to test this guy's stuff and never heard back from him; I have quite a bit of experience doing stuff like that and am an AR junkie. I offered to do a very fair and complete review and write it up and share with him and on here. I have an open mind about this part, and I understand it isn't a match component or military grade component, so the evaluation would have been done in the light of this. Testing it as a range rifle and plinker against a mil spec M4 and using the selfsame M4 upper for both lowers. How does it group, trigger pull, feel, etc. Not as a combat rifle (though I offered it to show him the breaking point for academic purposes).
Now, looking back at the posts that this fellow has written since (I contacted him shortly after he posted and assumed by the title he wanted testers) it kind of appears that this thread is not "help us test..." rather, "buy our stuff". It is an advertisement. So when reading this and gathering information about these products, just bear this in mind. And he isn't the first, Next Generation was peddling wares on here a while back too.
Now, looking back at the posts that this fellow has written since (I contacted him shortly after he posted and assumed by the title he wanted testers) it kind of appears that this thread is not "help us test..." rather, "buy our stuff". It is an advertisement. So when reading this and gathering information about these products, just bear this in mind. And he isn't the first, Next Generation was peddling wares on here a while back too.
Strykervet, please go back and read post #95.
I did respond to you. This post was about what people wanted to see done as tests on these guns, not to ask people to test them for us. They're not at the point of handing over to a customer (no matter how qualified you are) to do your own tests.
That's twice that I've responded directly to you and explained the situation to you, so please don't say I ignored you.
I really would like you to do a range test on it, and I was very impressed by your PM, they're just not at the point of putting them in anyones hands until we test them and deem them safe. I hope that makes sense.
And I'm not on here trying to sell them, because they're not for sale yet either.
I'm working with the mods right now to become an advertiser, and then, when they are ready, I will be posting trying to sell them here!
Seriously though, there are 3 people I pulled form this thread to send a sample out to in Jan, and you're one of them. I hope there's no hard feelings if you missed a post or two in there or misread anything I've said.
Thanks for your interest!
I did respond to you. This post was about what people wanted to see done as tests on these guns, not to ask people to test them for us. They're not at the point of handing over to a customer (no matter how qualified you are) to do your own tests.
That's twice that I've responded directly to you and explained the situation to you, so please don't say I ignored you.
I really would like you to do a range test on it, and I was very impressed by your PM, they're just not at the point of putting them in anyones hands until we test them and deem them safe. I hope that makes sense.
And I'm not on here trying to sell them, because they're not for sale yet either.
I'm working with the mods right now to become an advertiser, and then, when they are ready, I will be posting trying to sell them here!
Seriously though, there are 3 people I pulled form this thread to send a sample out to in Jan, and you're one of them. I hope there's no hard feelings if you missed a post or two in there or misread anything I've said.
Thanks for your interest!
Can you give more information about the parts in the complete lower?
Such as which parts are polymer, which are aluminum, which are steel, etc.
Trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector, pins, magazine catch, bolt catch, receiver extension/buffer tube, etc.
Who makes the small parts if you're not making them?
Such as which parts are polymer, which are aluminum, which are steel, etc.
Trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector, pins, magazine catch, bolt catch, receiver extension/buffer tube, etc.
Who makes the small parts if you're not making them?
I didn't read the whole thread but if you guys will be at the Shot Show, I'll look you up and we can talk. Very interested indeed.
The round count test is a good start, how about dropping it into sandy and between every mag. How about 10k rounds int 130 degree heat and 10k in sub zero temperatures?
Would like to see a machine slap the bolt release 100k times and see if there any wear around the pins and the pocket. Then make the machine slap the magzine release 100k times, and see if there's any wear. Then make it flick the safety 100k times and see if there's any wear.
I'd like to see a dummy, full weight solid upper and a solid magazine and a collapseable stock with a real buffer tube put on it and
watch it dropped onto concrete from 6 feet on the stock until it cracks.
watch it dropped onto concrete from 6 feet on the magazine until it cracks.
watch it dropped onto concrete from 6 feet on the barrel until it cracks.
watch it dropped onto concreet from 6 feet on either side until it cracks.
I'd like to see where it breaks, and how many drops it takes. If it doesn't break in 100 drops, call it a day.
Since you are producing it. I like for you to make sure a magazine locking deviced such as a Radlock (bullet button) will work on it (California strikes again). A flared magwell, and a provision for a tensioner screw to ensure a tightfit to any upper.
If you don't have a machine, I'd be more than happy to slap and flick a few dozen of them for you as a tester! In all seriousness, if you can provide a hassle free lifetime warranty, that would put away any silence any doubters.
Would like to see a machine slap the bolt release 100k times and see if there any wear around the pins and the pocket. Then make the machine slap the magzine release 100k times, and see if there's any wear. Then make it flick the safety 100k times and see if there's any wear.
I'd like to see a dummy, full weight solid upper and a solid magazine and a collapseable stock with a real buffer tube put on it and
watch it dropped onto concrete from 6 feet on the stock until it cracks.
watch it dropped onto concrete from 6 feet on the magazine until it cracks.
watch it dropped onto concrete from 6 feet on the barrel until it cracks.
watch it dropped onto concreet from 6 feet on either side until it cracks.
I'd like to see where it breaks, and how many drops it takes. If it doesn't break in 100 drops, call it a day.
Since you are producing it. I like for you to make sure a magazine locking deviced such as a Radlock (bullet button) will work on it (California strikes again). A flared magwell, and a provision for a tensioner screw to ensure a tightfit to any upper.
If you don't have a machine, I'd be more than happy to slap and flick a few dozen of them for you as a tester!
In all seriousness, if you can provide a hassle free lifetime warranty, that would put away any silence any doubters.
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Do you have a dealer/distributor in PA yet? If not, I'd like to recruit one of our local FFLs in west central PA.
You can have the dealer you have in mind contact us by e-mail at [email protected] and we'll get him out a dealer packet.
We put a hack job edit of one of the videos up on our facebook page. We should have the real videos and pics up sometime next week after a little more tweaking.
"Like" the page to keep updated.
This video shows 75K cycles of the fire control group and we still had positive engagement of the hammer/trigger.
www.facebook.com/nfalw15
We put a hack job edit of one of the videos up on our facebook page. We should have the real videos and pics up sometime next week after a little more tweaking.
"Like" the page to keep updated.
This video shows 75K cycles of the fire control group and we still had positive engagement of the hammer/trigger.
www.facebook.com/nfalw15
Okay, the second test of the series is up. We crush the magwell with a ram 20 thousandths more than an aluminum receiver and the alum receiver barely takes a mag, bust a pivot pin, and won't drop the mag.
The LW-15 polymer lower bounces back to shape, no cracking, easily accepts a mag, then drops free.
Here are the first two tests if you guys would like to watch them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaFevpTka-I&context=C31785e2ADOEgsToPDskI5bsw6ZsY8WrBuya4S1BmB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qpnmi3XPP8&context=C3cd6ca5ADOEgsToPDskJxECecajddHLu0sL2ni2qy
The LW-15 polymer lower bounces back to shape, no cracking, easily accepts a mag, then drops free.
Here are the first two tests if you guys would like to watch them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaFevpTka-I&context=C31785e2ADOEgsToPDskI5bsw6ZsY8WrBuya4S1BmB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qpnmi3XPP8&context=C3cd6ca5ADOEgsToPDskJxECecajddHLu0sL2ni2qy
+1 on what GTScotty said!
NFA: I might have missed it but, what price are you planning on selling these for?
NFA: I might have missed it but, what price are you planning on selling these for?
Comlpete Lowers with stock, pistol grip and LPK installed (all US made big name brand parts) for $99
Complete rifles with a Black Hole Weaponry 16" M4 MATCH GRADE bbl with 3 groove polygonal rifling, YHM front flip sight, MAGPUL MBUS rear flip sight, MAGPUL MOE handguard, 30 rd MAGPUL PMAG and a Hard Case for $599
Complete rifles with a Black Hole Weaponry 16" M4 MATCH GRADE bbl with 3 groove polygonal rifling, YHM front flip sight, MAGPUL MBUS rear flip sight, MAGPUL MOE handguard, 30 rd MAGPUL PMAG and a Hard Case for $599
Wow, I'm impressed with the torture testing. I'm very surprised the poly didn't crack during the crush test. That pretty much sold me on durability. And the complete rifle price point is very tempting.
Hello NFA.
Spencer here. I've been quietly searching anything and everything I can on this forum and others regarding info about AR-15s. I've been really close to purchasing a Keltec su-16 several times but am resistant. I really like what I see in the AR platform ...ergo's, time-tested performance, huge aftermarket, and make-it-your-own-ability.
The one thing I haven't found yet was a polymer lower until this thread. Here I found out about your project as well as the Plum Crazy offering. Either one seems to make sense to someone like me. I'm looking for a lightweight AR style carbine that is very reliable with moderate use and will not be a burden to carry.
I have no experience with which to build a prejudice and have no extreme tests to subject a firearm to. I simply would like to find an AR that I like to fire, don't mind carrying, and my wife would enjoy shooting.
All my knowledge of an AR is Read-only. I have *zero* hands on experience.
Do I qualify!? :>)
Spencer
Spencer here. I've been quietly searching anything and everything I can on this forum and others regarding info about AR-15s. I've been really close to purchasing a Keltec su-16 several times but am resistant. I really like what I see in the AR platform ...ergo's, time-tested performance, huge aftermarket, and make-it-your-own-ability.
The one thing I haven't found yet was a polymer lower until this thread. Here I found out about your project as well as the Plum Crazy offering. Either one seems to make sense to someone like me. I'm looking for a lightweight AR style carbine that is very reliable with moderate use and will not be a burden to carry.
I have no experience with which to build a prejudice and have no extreme tests to subject a firearm to. I simply would like to find an AR that I like to fire, don't mind carrying, and my wife would enjoy shooting.
All my knowledge of an AR is Read-only. I have *zero* hands on experience.
Do I qualify!? :>)
Spencer
Spencer, you are our exact target customer, I couldn't describe that title better myself.
Is there better products out there? Yes, for different applications. We're not trying to take over the AR market or get the next big military contract, we're just offering something different where people like you can get into an AR for $599 or less and go out and have good safe shooting fun with it.
Keep your eyes out towards late Jan when the product hits the market running. We already have over 2K units allotted to our dealer network, so they may pop up in a gun store near you soon!
Is there better products out there? Yes, for different applications. We're not trying to take over the AR market or get the next big military contract, we're just offering something different where people like you can get into an AR for $599 or less and go out and have good safe shooting fun with it.
Keep your eyes out towards late Jan when the product hits the market running. We already have over 2K units allotted to our dealer network, so they may pop up in a gun store near you soon!
Every time there is an internet forum discussion of polymer AR lowers, someone posts a photo of a notorious PCF lower failure that has been copied and pasted all over the web. The original posting of that failure explains that the owner of that lower used a CAR/M4 buffer in a rifle-length tube, allowing the carrier to go back so far the carrier key impacted the receiver where the buffer attaches. Apparently this mistake can also cause an aluminum AR lower to fail.
If you want to put to rest the Number One argument against polymer lowers, you have to find a way to clarify for your buyers and the general gun buying (and debating) public the most common causes of polymer AR lower failures in the past, and why/how yours are different.
(Of course, if you could take an LW-15 lower and an aluminum lower, use a CAR/M4 buffer in a rifle-length tube on each, and see at what point each fails, and post the results, you would permanently debunk that PCF "failure" photo.)
If you want to put to rest the Number One argument against polymer lowers, you have to find a way to clarify for your buyers and the general gun buying (and debating) public the most common causes of polymer AR lower failures in the past, and why/how yours are different.
(Of course, if you could take an LW-15 lower and an aluminum lower, use a CAR/M4 buffer in a rifle-length tube on each, and see at what point each fails, and post the results, you would permanently debunk that PCF "failure" photo.)
Michael, thanks for the input.
We definitely need to do some type of proof test on the rear of the receiver, we're just trying to come up with somethings that's fair and measurable that we can put out.
Of course anything can break when used wrong or beat on, no matter what its made of. We're not saying this thing can't break, we're saying that it won't break any faster than anything else on the market.
When a new aluminum lower hits the market you never hear anyone say that the company should drop it off a building, or hit it with a hammer, or run it over with a tank, but we knew we'd see this going into it.
I think our product will prove itself, and with the next few videos we put out will gain the trust of more consumers.
Good point on the feedback from the PC's too. You always "hear" about the friend of a friend who broke one, but we've sold thousands of them and they have a lifetime warranty, so I'd imagine I would have seen a broken one by now, but we haven't.
We definitely need to do some type of proof test on the rear of the receiver, we're just trying to come up with somethings that's fair and measurable that we can put out.
Of course anything can break when used wrong or beat on, no matter what its made of. We're not saying this thing can't break, we're saying that it won't break any faster than anything else on the market.
When a new aluminum lower hits the market you never hear anyone say that the company should drop it off a building, or hit it with a hammer, or run it over with a tank, but we knew we'd see this going into it.
I think our product will prove itself, and with the next few videos we put out will gain the trust of more consumers.
Good point on the feedback from the PC's too. You always "hear" about the friend of a friend who broke one, but we've sold thousands of them and they have a lifetime warranty, so I'd imagine I would have seen a broken one by now, but we haven't.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
My question to you is; Why are you making a lightweight composite lower?
I think that you are looking for light weight, so make a rifle and/or upper to go with it, get a slick side flattop upper with a light weight 16" barrel and put the lightest weight tube fore end and front gas block on it with an ace tube stock.
I want a gun that I can take to the range and have fun with yet not have a ton of weight to carry around. I bet you could get below 5.5lbs with a plastic mag.
I think that you are looking for light weight, so make a rifle and/or upper to go with it, get a slick side flattop upper with a light weight 16" barrel and put the lightest weight tube fore end and front gas block on it with an ace tube stock.
I want a gun that I can take to the range and have fun with yet not have a ton of weight to carry around. I bet you could get below 5.5lbs with a plastic mag.
We are doing that. We're starting with a $599 light weight rifle with match bbl and then we'll offer more variations as we go
Sounds good.
At a minimum, do a video comparing the construction/molding/composition of the LW-15 compared to the Professional Ordnance Carbon 15, Vulcan V15, PCF C-15, etc. polymer lowers, pointing out the improvements you've made over previous attempts at polymer lowers to prevent the most common known causes of polymer lower failures. (The LW-15 is not related to the Vulcan V15, right?)
That to me is the most important piece of info I need to finally take the plunge on a polymer lower. I want to see how you learned from previous generations of polymer lowers' mistakes and what parts of the lower mold or materials were changed/beefed up to solve known issues.
And then I'll buy a half dozen ;-)
Its a similiar look to the C-15, but a stronger blend of material for the application. We worked with a few different things to find the actual problems they were having, not the preceived problems that no one could make a fact out of.
90% of the problems were from poor parts / poor assembly and QA.
We've used higher quality (ALL American Made) parts and changed the material used to make some of the polymer FCG parts that were causing issues, mainly the takedown and pivot detents letting the pins slide out.
We've also put an assembly process into place that takes a lot of the mistakes out of the previous rushed assembly.
90% of the problems were from poor parts / poor assembly and QA.
We've used higher quality (ALL American Made) parts and changed the material used to make some of the polymer FCG parts that were causing issues, mainly the takedown and pivot detents letting the pins slide out.
We've also put an assembly process into place that takes a lot of the mistakes out of the previous rushed assembly.
I have watched the videos and am looking forward to more news on the complete system. Looks like a very good price to get started on the AR frame.
Ive had this ever since it was available to buy
of course im no soldier but its lasted
within the last few years ive switched to shooting 22lr out of it only because its cheaper for me to do so
but its so much lighter compared to a metal ar
of course im no soldier but its lasted
within the last few years ive switched to shooting 22lr out of it only because its cheaper for me to do so
but its so much lighter compared to a metal ar
Yellow Box, not to bee dim but what is it? It looks like a polymer lower but can you specify what type, etc? Thanks.
Looks like one of these Baldman http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_carbon15_index.asp
Huh, learn something new everyday. Had no idea Bushmaster made tupperware lowers.
Huh, learn something new everyday. Had no idea Bushmaster made tupperware lowers.
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