Help with a choice between 3 single actions (Open top, Conv, or SAA)

[AethelstanAegen]

I've been looking into buying my first true single action revolver. This is really going to be pretty much a range/fun gun so I'm trying to keep the budget below $600 (and preferably below $500). I'd really like to get the gun in a .45 "Long" Colt (I'm entering the wonderful world of reloading soon so ammo cost isn't a huge issue). Basically, I've narrowed things down a bit to three choices that seem to fit well for me and I was hoping for any advice/experience-with-one-of-the-models/recommendations-for-other-similar-pistols not covered below you all can provide me. I've provided a list of pros and cons for each so far...and additional input would be great.

Option # 1: Cimarron (Uberti) 1872 Open Top with Army-Style Grip and 7-1/2" barrel
Pros:
I love the look and have always enjoyed my 1860 C&B Army revolver (so great style)
A rather unique model that differs from the numerous SAAs so commonly seen
I've found them available for $425 so well within budget
Better sights than the conversion
Cons:
Design not as strong as SAA model though I'm planning to in general shoot low powered "Cowboy"/Blackpowder loads (so perhaps not an issue...anyone know the limit with these guys?)
I've heard rumors (but can't confirm with any first person experience) that there may sometimes be split barrels with .45lc so I'm also considering this in perhaps .44spl or maybe .44colt

Option #2: Cimmaron (Uberti) Type II Richards Transition Conversion with a 7-1/2" barrel
Pros:
Stylistically, in my opinion, the nicest
Also a unique design rarely seen these days (though apparently quite common back in the day)
Cons:
Poor sights (rear sight is a groove on the hammer)
I haven't heard any rumors of split barrels (which could be because they're rarer) but the design is still relatively weak anyways (compared to SAA)
Don't have a price yet, but likely to be more expensive than the 1872 Open Top

Option #3: EMF Company's Great Western II - Californian with standard grips and either a 5-1/2" or 7-1/2" barrel (ie SAA clone)
Pros:
Strongest action so far mentioned
Parts apparently interchange with original Colt SAA parts (true clone)
Probably the best sights
I've found them for roughl $460 which is still within budget
Cons:
I see a lot of SAAs and the design doesn't thrill me as much as the others (I guess I've always liked the looks of the classic C&B pistols and the SAA doesn't quite fit that mold)
I'm not very familiar with EMF Company (do they have good customer service, quality, etc...they seem to from what I've read but does anyone have first person experience?)

Anyways, sorry for a really long post, but I appreciate any help you can give me (and yes, before someone says, "why choose, get all three!", one day I may add all three to the collection but I have to start somewhere and it's not in the budget now). Many thanks!

 

[BCRider]

The SAA style, as you say, are very common. Hence if you watch for them you can perhaps find a nice used one for a good price. Just be ready to leap with your wallet when you trip over such a deal.

In the meantime that 1872 sure does look nice. I haven't been researching them so I'll take your word for the cracking issues with the .45Colt loads. "IF" you choose another caliber you'll want to find a reasonably steady source of brass. One advantage of .44Spl is that you can use a case trimmer on .44Mag brass to shorten it to .44Spl length and find all the brass you could wish for at relatively cheap pricing.

But if you could find a decent source of .44Colt or perhaps .44 Russian brass then you'd have the joy of this being a historicaly more faithful cartridge. You'd also more easily replicate the low impact black powder loads without the need for any filler since the cases are a tad shorter.

So all in all if it were me Jonesing for a new gun and didn't mind the cost I'd go for the 1872 open top and wait to trip over a sweet deal on a used SAA clone in due time. And I'd likely go for the more historically faithful .44Colt chambering once I'd confirmed that I could source the required brass and bullets reasonably easily.

 

[451 Detonics]

I have the open top in 38 special and love it. As for reloading, Trail Boss powder is great in the guns regardless of caliber.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Thanks for the advice so far. I'll be sure to pick up some Trail Boss powder once I get my reloading rig set up.

 

[SAA]

I'm not going to vote because it wouldn't be fair. I don't have first hand knowledge of the first two particular Italian offerings, and you have to decide for yourself what will make you happy.

It doesn't sound like you really want a SAA type gun, so I don't think you should get one for now. But, I can vouch for the EMF (Pietta) Great Western ll as being very well made as far as reproductions go, and a good choice for the price. BTW, it is a 5 1/2" barrel, not 5 3/4". Or, did you mean 4 3/4"?

 

[TennJed]

If you are reloading you might want to look at a ruger blackhawk. The frame strength will allow you to make up some "ruger only" 45 colt loads. Give you a little more flexibility in case you want to hunt big game or just have fun with a little kick. I know you are planning low pressure loads now but you never know what the future might bring. And from what I have heard sometimes reloaders like to push limits

A nice option is the blackhawk 45lc/45acp convertible model. Gives you a chance to shoot either. I got one not long ago NIB for $499

 

[AethelstanAegen]

SAA, you're right, I meant 5-1/2" but had a brain lapse, I'll see if I can edit it so it reads correctly. Frankly, while I was coming up with my pros/cons list for each for this thread, it was hard to come up with cons on the GWII. I like the looks of the other two a bit better but that's probably as most of my prior experience has been with C&B revolvers and the SAA design is growing on me and the fact that the frame is a bit stronger is comforting to know. I think the only solution will to buy the runner-up as soon as possible...haha. It's a tough decision, especially when info on the Cimarron guns listed is pretty hard to find.

 

[madcratebuilder]

In the long run I think you would be better served with a Ruger New Vaquero. A SAA clone it can handle all but the heaviest of .45 Colt loads.

 

[calaverasslim]

I shoot all 3 on a regular basis. I strongly recommend going with a 5.5" barrel rather than 7.5. Just as accurate and not quite as heavy.

Which one of the 3? All 3 are great guns and fun to shoot. However, on the open top, you can order cylinders and barrels from VTI gun parts and swicth calibers on a whim. I did that with both, my RM conversion from 44 Colt to 44 special and the open top the same way. Thinking about buying a cylinder/barrel combo in 45 Schofield and going that route for awhile



Just which ever appeals to you.

 

[CraigC]

I hardly see how the recommendations for Rugers are going to be helpful. Not all single actions are created equal but I reckon folks stick to what they know. If what you want is a traditional single action with the old Colt feel but without the high price tag then no Ruger will do. Particularly a New Model.

It really boils down to what appeals to you. Strength is a non-issue if you stick to standard pressure loads. If you plan on putting 100,000rds through it in the next few years then I'd recommend a USFA, Colt or Ruger. However, for standard loads, it boils down to preference. IMHO, the Open Top is the most refined of the topless replicas. It was Colt's first dedicated cartridge gun, rather than a conversion. So it is more refined than the Richards, Richards Type II and Richards-Mason conversions but has much the same appeal. The downside is the short sight radius. I really don't consider the sights on any to be better, with regards to sight picture, than any other but the Open Top's short sight radius is a factor. The Richards-Mason and Richards Type II are going to be the longest, with their notches in the hammer. The Richards Type I having it in the breechplate. The ejector is better on the Open Top and is more easily operated quickly. I think the Richards Type I (only available as used ASM's) and Type II (new and better replicas) are the best looking, due to the elegant percussion barrel. The Open Top is more usable. I'd suggest the .44Colt or .44Spl (some .44Colts have .44Spl chambers) for either. Mine are both .44Colt's. Brass is readily available from Starline and my favored load is a 240gr SWC over 4.0gr Titegroup.

I agree that the SAA has become so prevalent, it's lost much of its appeal. Even though I own several. The Open Tops and conversions offer something a little different with an appeal all their own. I plan on adding several more to my accumulation, lusting hard after another 1860 Type II. This time an antiqued and ivory stocked 5½" plus a 4¾" 1851 Richards-Mason.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

A big thank you to everyone on the advice so far...I've gotten a lot og good tips.

Calaverasslim, big thank you for that tip about VTI gun parts allowing you to switch out calibers...that's a very useful tip. Were suggestion that I consider the 5.5" barrel open top and conversion over the 7.5" versions or did your comment only refer to the choice in the SAA clone?

CraigC, I'd love to find a type I conversion (the longer sight radius would be a plus and I'm not crazy about the hammer notch rear sight on the type IIs) but it's pretty difficult these days. I being rather new to revolvers, an open top or conversion in .44 special would also be able to fire .44 Colt and .44 Russian (but not the other way around), correct?

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[CraigC]

A .44Spl can fire any of the three, it is the longest. The .44Colt can fire .44Colt and .44Russian and with a .44Russian, you're restricted to only that cartridge. But like I said, some are marked and sold as .44Colt's but have .44Spl chambers. Which, IMHO, would be the best of all worlds because you get the more period-correct markings with a more versatile chamber.

I'd love to find one of the earlier ASM Type I's but their quality was spotty so I would consider that purchase to be "just to have it". Member StrawHat has one and as I recall, it took quite a bit of work to get it reliable. They also made a lovely little 1861 Navy conversion which you do not see too often.

Cimarron Open Top:


Cimarron 1860 Type II (w/Uberti 1873 Deluxe Sporting Rifle .38-40):

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Those are just beautiful CraigC! I've decided on either the Open Top or the Transition Conversion in .44 Special (unless I can find one of the .44 Colts with a .44Spl chamber). Would you guys recommend getting it in the 7.5/8" (I realized the Transition only has 5.5" or 8" barrels) or going with the 5.5" barrel? My question being does the extra length make a noticable difference in accuracy? I really appreciate everyone's help and advice.

 

[CraigC]

With the considerably longer sight radius compared to an Open Top, I really don't see much of a practical difference with the 5½" 1860 Type II. I think a short barrelled Open Top would really be pushing your luck. It's not like you're gonna be shooting Coke cans at 100yds with it but I do actually 'use' mine. It is one of my most-used sixguns when rifle hunting. Don't have a conversion but my 5½" 1860 percussion is a very well balanced, fine handling and good looking sixgun. Sorry for the fuzzy pic, lighting wasn't very good.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Thanks for the info, CraigC...that makes a lot of sense...so consider the 5.5" in the Type II Conversion but go full length if getting the Open Top. Once again, that's a great looking C&B! There is something very attractive about the Conversions/Open Top in the long barrel. It's all food for thought and I appreciate the first hand experience to help inform my choice.

 

[harvester]

Colt single action army. The original. Lets all remember there is only one Single Action Army.

 

[StrawHat]

Yep, I have one of the ASM versions of the Richards conversion in 44 Colt.



I ended up replacing all the internals including the hammer and really like the revolver and the cartridge. Of the revolvers you mention, if you are hung up on the 45 long Colt for a chambering, stay with the SAA type as the conversions were not offered in anything that large originally. If you can be happy with the 44 Colt, either of the conversions you mention are good.

I have been happy with the 44 Colt as a plinking revolver. For hunting I choose the 45 long Colt and am more than hapy with 260 grain bullets at about 950 - 1000 fps. For my Model P clones, I load with black powder and I am always pleased witht he performance. Remember, the 45 long Colt was originally designed to put down a horse or the rider behind it. I see no practical need to load it any hotter but to those that do, have fun it is not necessary but it seems to be the "rage". Loaded to original ballistics, the 45 long Colt is capable of taking all North American game animals. The 44 Colt, is not nearly as powerful and as such has a lesser folowing but those of us using it, appreciate the history of the cartridge. It took the single action revolver and made it a more reliable firearm.

 

[CraigC]

I always enjoy seeing that picture.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

I must confess, StrawHat's and CraigC's pictures did an awful lot to influence my decision on the conversion over the SAA...haha. It's a really great looking pistol, StrawHat...I wish Uberti/Cimarron made a type I conversion. I think I've pretty well settled on the Richards Transition, gents. Haven't totally decided between .44 Spl or .45 LC. The only thing holding me back from .44 Spl is that if I get a second SA revolver down the road as planned, it'd be nice for them to be able to share a common caliber (2nd will either be a SAA clone or perhaps a Schofield with a 5.5" barrel and .45lc). That's still a bit down the line so I may go with .44 Spl anyways as it seems the better choice. Many thanks for all the help! I'll be sure to post some pics when I make the purchase (later in the summer once I've completed a move) and see if I can give CraigC and StrawHat a little more competition in pics.

 

[MCgunner]

I voted 5.5" EMF peacemaker, but in the background I'm shouting "RUGER VAQUERO!" Even my favorite cap and ball is a Ruger.

 

[StrawHat]

Model P clones are available in 44 Special and will chamber and fire the 44 Colt. On one of the cowboy forums a bunch of the competitors were rechambering their 44 Colts to handle the 44 Special cartridge. It lets them have a revolver and rifle (usually an 1873 clone) in the same chambering.

 

[CraigC]

Sounds good and yep, you can get SAA replicas in .44Spl as well. It's one of my favorite sixgun chamberings!

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Thanks for all the help gents. I've got a little bit of time to figure out which caliber I want (the decider will probably be if I think I'm planning to get a SAA or a Schofield as the second pistol in the future). I'm heavily leaning toward .44 Special though (ammo interchangability is not a must). Thanks again for all the help!

 

[jhco50]

Cimmaron Hartford in .45lc

 

[StrawHat]

...AethelstanAegen ...I think I'm planning to get a SAA or a Schofield as the second pistol in the future...

The SAA will be closest to what the Open Top will feel and how it will handle. Depending on the grip type (Army or Navy) it could feel identical in your hand. SAAs were usually built with Navy grips. The Schofield, is an entirely different revovler and will feel so in your hand. It is not as instinctive as a SAA. I tried one and stayed with the Richards.

FYI

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Conversions/TypeIIRichConv.htm