Help with choosing a precision training/target rifle.

[sven1019]

I am considering buying a precision rifle for training, thinking in .223, solely for training and target shooting over 100 yards. I will mostly shoot from a bench or prone off a bipod and intend to use the rifle to become a better shot and to grow with. I am trying to decide between getting a production rifle and getting a rifle built by a gunsmith. I do not have a fortune to spend but realize that, for precision, I get what I pay for. Can anyone recommend a production rifle or a good manufacturer? The reason I am think .223 is that it's relatively cheap to shoot and easy to find ammo for. Also, because I'm relatively new to shooting and don't want to be hypersensitive to the recoil or muzzle blast and acquire bad habits if I start with a cartridge that really kicks hard. Would another caliber/cartridge be better?

When it comes to custom-built rifles, does anyone know of a good gunsmith in the eastern Pennsylvania area? If I get a production rifle, I may change the stock, get a thicker barrel or accurize the rifle for better precision, but can also think of having a custom rifle built for me. What do you think? All information and opinions are welcome. Thanks

 

[saiga308]

I am considering buying a precision rifle for training, thinking in .223, solely for training and target shooting over 100 yards. I will mostly shoot from a bench or prone off a bipod and intend to use the rifle to become a better shot and to grow with. I am trying to decide between getting a production rifle and getting a rifle built by a gunsmith. I do not have a fortune to spend but realize that, for precision, I get what I pay for. Can anyone recommend a production rifle or a good manufacturer? The reason I am think .223 is that it's relatively cheap to shoot and easy to find ammo for. Also, because I'm relatively new to shooting and don't want to be hypersensitive to the recoil or muzzle blast and acquire bad habits if I start with a cartridge that really kicks hard. Would another caliber/cartridge be better?

When it comes to custom-built rifles, does anyone know of a good gunsmith in the eastern Pennsylvania area? If I get a production rifle, I may change the stock, get a thicker barrel or accurize the rifle for better precision, but can also think of having a custom rifle built for me. What do you think? All information and opinions are welcome. Thanks

try and find one that been upgraded with bull barrel they way you want dont buy a production rifle.
heres one for sale in my neck of the woods for $600 all
finish

escription
Like new Remington 700 VTR shoots tight groups only shot 12 shots through it , 600 obo or trade for a different caliber gun let me know what you have. Scope not included

 

[DocRock]

Cheap ammo and training/target shooting don't often go together in my book. If you are training, it is to become a better marksman. If you are target shooring, it is to get the best score. In either of those endeavors, it seems to me that cheap ammo let's you down. If you are doing your part - rock solid base, controlled breathing, slowly taking the trigger to break, and doing it all brilliantly, and then cheap ammo is delivering groups that simply do not reflect your effort and technique, that would seem to defeat the purpose of the exercise.

So, while I have nothing but good to say of the 223 for training and target shooting, you have to match ammo to effort. I wouldn't endorse Savage Axis, a T/C Compass, or another budget rifle that is perfectly serviceable as a hunting rifle for this endeavor. Nor would I recommend South African surplus or Winchester value pack ammo.

Get the best target gun that you can, within means, hand load for it to the best possible result, and become a better marksman. It is a noble endeavor for which you are to be commended.

 

[MikeInOr]

.223 is a great place to start. Inexpensive ammo and a lot of options available. Premium ammo is available for as cheap as you are going to get in a center fire rifle. Very soft recoil.

6.5mm is something you might consider. I like 6.5x55 mauser but the 6.5 Creedmore is all the rage right now. If the 6.5 Creedmore is close to recoil 6.5x55 (I believe it is) then it is still pretty soft recoil but will buck the wind better than a .223 for longer shots.

My Remington 700 bull barrel in .223 (used) was quite accurate from day 1 with Blackhill .223. It really started to shine when I started reloading. I saved a good bit buying used and got a real nice scope in the deal too.

I don't believe you have to spend a fortune on a custom built rifle to get an accurate rifle... especially these days.

 

[Demi-human]

Buy a used Savage.
Twist on a Krieger or Shilen.
Shoot small.

Or a Remage set up.
Remington action, Savage barrel nut.
Manners stock. Bartlien barrel.
Vortex scope and mount. I like the Mystik bipod.



The world is your oyster if you are wanting to build one. A human can put together a very nice rifle for not a lot of money today.

Of course if you had coin and liked Seekins, it's already put together...

 

[FL-NC]

My Mossberg MVP in 223 is very accurate. 1 MOA groups with good ammo.

 

[BigBL87]

Personally, with the goal of precision and customization without breaking the bank I would probably look at the Savage 10/11/110/111 family or the Remington 700 (potentially with the Remage setup in mind as mentioned above). The 700 has alot of aftermarket support, the Savage has decent support though probably not as much as the 700 when you include all parts. The barrel nut system on the Savage is probably its greatest asset for your use, as it makes it much simpler to swap out your barrel and there are plenty of options for aftermarket barrels for the Savage. I am also a big fan of the Accutrigger, though that is more of a personal preference for some. I would personally lean towards the Savage but that is also in part because I already own two Savage rifles and really like them.

.223 is definitely a good place to start as far as centerfire cartridges. Even if you buy match ammo for .223, you'll likely still be coming in cheaper than your larger bore alternatives even in their bulk pricing or at worst close to even. I will say though for getting down the basics and really refining your form, I'd even consider a 22lr though that would bring your range a bit closer as far as distance. I thoroughly enjoy shooting my Savage Mark II, arguably more than my centerfire rifles sometimes in no small part because I can shoot so much more for my dime.

 

[jmr40]

This is what I use.
https://ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/26944.html

Cost me $389 OTD. Shoots good ammo into 1/2 MOA. I also have rifles in 6.5CM and 308. I can shoot quality factory loads in the 223 cheaper than I can put together hand loads for the others. I've not shot my 223 past 300 yards yet, but I've seen others use it successfully out to 600 yards.

This ammo, 50 gr plastic tipped, isn't supposed to shoot in an 8 twist rifle, but it does. And priced under $25/50 rounds is the cheapest accurate ammo I've tried.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1836125052

The Hornady Black 75 gr also shoots well in my rifles. I can get it $14/box locally

https://www.cabelas.com/product/HORNADY-BLACK-AMMO/2474098.uts?slotId=0

The 6.5 is an option especially if you want to shoot at longer ranges. Recoil is almost exactly 1/2 way between 308 and 243. There are lots of choices for quality factory loads priced between $15-$30 for a box of ammo. But at under 600 yards 223 is a good choice.

 

[Varminterror]

When you say you would like to begin practicing precision rifle, what does that mean to you? Precision Rifle Competition is very specific, and the rifles are very different than benchrest or F class rifles, and very different than what might be needed for a casual, non-competition, long range plinking rifle.

If you’re just wanting to lay down prone or shoot from a bench, shoot groups at 100-800 yards with a 223, not burning much powder and not spending much, a Rem 700 AAC or Ruger American Predator are fine options. Inexpensive, but accurate enough under those low-demand circumstances to leave you plenty of money for optics and ammo. These polymer stocks will need blocked, bedded, and stiffened, but all can be done for $50 and a free weekend. A Savage 12 BVSS is another great option in this class, for a little more aesthetically pleasing rifle.

Equally, you don’t have to spend a dollar per round on premium ammo to shoot at 800 yards with a 223. Many affordable loads will shoot 1moa or smaller - some of the most accurate factory ammo I have ever fired has been inexpensive 50grn JHP’s from Remington’s UMC. Just find a load your rifle will put under 1moa, and scale your targets and expectations for range accordingly. A 223rem is a great choice for this - a “training rifle” - because it has such a great long barrel life, low ammo cost, low recoil, and is less forgiving at shorter ranges than a higher powered cartridge like 6.5 creed. Twice the barrel life and half the ammo cost, and good wind practice at 600 yards instead of 1,000.

If by “precision rifle” you are talking about the rapidly growing field rifle competition, then the lowest cost rifles I could recommend are the purpose designed factory custom options from MPA or Seekins, ringing in at $2,000 (priced such to meet the Production Class rule requirements).

Frankly, I do a lot of my practice with a 22LR. All of the same skills apply, and I can shoot on a 300 yard range instead of a 1,000 yard range - with far cheaper ammunition, and far greater barrel life. I also do a lot of my practice with a 223 AR-15, making use of a general purpose rifle I own, and reducing my ammo cost or reloading burden.

 

[Skylerbone]

When you say “over 100 yards”, and I assume by further context that you are new to shooting, I might suggest a different approach to things. I would start with a .17 in a Savage target model, spend almost all of the allotted budget on the scope, skip the complexity of reloading for now, and find a mentor to help you learn while avoiding pitfalls.

100-300 yards is just scratching intermediate range and it is where the vast majority of “shooters” spend their efforts. Little in the way of custom is required and is money wasted if that is the goal or if you decide shooting isn’t for you. Good glass will retain some value for resale or repurpose if you continue the pursuit and an inexpensive.17 can be easily moved without too many tears.

Should you find it a life long goal then by all means buy a solid, purpose built centerfire later, transfer the scope, and find help to begin reloading. I wish you the best and welcome to THR.

 

[Varminterror]

100-300 yards is just scratching intermediate range and it is where the vast majority of “shooters” spend their efforts.

Agreed - and I’ll expand a bit on that sentiment.

Shooting at 100-300 is a bit of a paradox for me.

It’s classified as “short range,” rightfully so because there’s really not yet much influence from anything in front of the muzzle. Any centerfire bottleneck rifle cartridge is just getting warmed up at 100-300 yards. Light conditions, temperature, wind, rain, almost all of it is over-taken by the high velocity over the short range. Which is why most of us spend most of our time shooting 100-300. We can focus on ourselves and our rifles, with less concern that a stray impact was a gust of wind, and more confidence that it was our own bad trigger control.

On the other hand, the fact 100-300 is a “safe space” for shooting with limited environmental influence, it also means we don’t learn much about anything happening to the bullet after it leaves our muzzle. As an example, my match load only drops 9” at 300 yards, but drops 65” at 600. 2” of wind drift, versus 7” in a 4mph wind. 0.4” at 100yrds. Misestimating wind by 1mph at 100yrds means a hair less than .1” of error, whereas at 600, it means a hair less than 2”. At 1,000, every mile-per-hour error means 5” of miss off of target.

So 100-300 is where we learn the most about ourselves, and the least about our environment. Knowing that and using it to your advantage to structure your practice with your rifle is exceptionally powerful.

 

[taliv]

Dunno about a gunsmith but I’ve bought a lot of barrels from accuracy one in PA over the years. I’d bet they’d know if there are any local gunsmiths.

 

[ford8nr]

I'm relatively new to shooting and don't want to be hypersensitive to the recoil or muzzle blast and acquire bad habits if I start with a cartridge that really kicks hard. Would another caliber/cartridge be better?

Good .22lr bolt gun with good glass.
100yds is where the fun begins.
200-250yds you'll learn to read and comp for wind.
Cheap to shoot, less shooter fatigue.
You'll get interesting looks from the CF guys when you hang a target at 200.

 

[Trashyshoots]

Good .22lr bolt gun with good glass.
100yds is where the fun begins.
200-250yds you'll learn to read and comp for wind.
Cheap to shoot, less shooter fatigue.
You'll get interesting looks from the CF guys when you hang a target at 200.

I cant agree more. My centerfire game upped exponentially after having to shelve them due to income and shoot nothing but .22s for 5 years. A good. 22 and good glass is a recipe for a great learning tool.

 

[Demi-human]

I am considering buying a precision rifle for training, thinking in .223,

This is what I did...

Savage Model 12 F/TR .223
Viper HST 6-25x50
Sinclair Bipod
Cheap rest, or pack or roll.

The Savage barrel will put ten in less than .75 inch at one hundred, over and over. (I really have nothing to do with this...)
I love, but don't recommend, a 30 inch barrel. It's heavy. Not good for hiking up a hill and trying to set in an inclined roof to take only one shot.
When it is cooked, I can thread a new barrel on at home and set it myself.
(Next time a polished one.)

A new bolt head from PTG can give me the option of a larger case head and open the door of larger caliber cases for future shooting of even longer ranges.
(That will have to be somewhere other than "the woods".)

A good start for me. And easily changed if necessary. No blast, hardly any recoil. Inexpensive shooting. Lots of aftermarket. Savagely precise. And good looking if I may add.

Let us know what you come up with!

 

[z7]

How much do you want to spend? That is a major factor in recommending something

will you also need glass? How much do you want to spend on glass?

 

[TikkaShooter]

I don't believe you have to spend a fortune on a custom built rifle to get an accurate rifle... especially these days.

The tolerances today's machinery can hold are very small as compared to a decade or so ago which is why so many commercial rifles are guaranteed to shoot MOA with ammunition they recommend.
If a MOA is guaranteed for every rifle manufactured; most will shoot under a MOA.

 

[WVRJ]

5 or 6 years ago I decided to do something like you're talking about doing.I wanted a rifle that is very accurate and very gentle on the shoulder.A buddy of mine had a M700 VTR in 223 that he couldn't get to shoot well and he offered it to me for a great price.He had already bought a B&C Medalist stock,Timney Trigger and some other goodies that went along with the gun.I tried to find a handload that would work in it,but it was a 2 MOA rifle,no matter what I did.I ordered a Shilen factory varmint contour barrel and a Holland's 1/4 inch recoil lug.I blueprinted the action and installed the barrel,keeping all tolerances tight.My goal for this build was to be able to shoot half inch 5 shot groups on a regular basis.The first set of 5 consecutive 5 shot groups measured .470,and a little tweaking got it shooting even better.I chose the 223 because of the ammo/reloading components selection that is out there for the cute little round.I shoot it a lot,especially when hunting season gets near.It has so little recoil it keeps me on my game,especially when I'm shooting several guns that make more noise and recoil.It's not a full bore 10 grand custom built rifle by any stretch,but it's still very good,and I don't quite have $1800 in it,including the optic.Also,as many have said,the 22lr is also a great training aid.I wish we still had ground hogs here in WV,because that 223 would be a great midrange varmint gun.

 

[Nature Boy]

Which is why most of us spend most of our time shooting 100-300. We can focus on ourselves and our rifles, with less concern that a stray impact was a gust of wind, and more confidence that it was our own bad trigger control.

absolutely!

 

[taliv]

i mostly shoot 500-1000 because i spend most of my time learning wind

 

[C-grunt]

I would buy a decent factory rifle and spend the savings of the custom rifle to buy a better scope.

You will be better off buying a 1000 dollar rifle with a 2000 dollar score than you will be with a 2000 dollar rifle with a 1000 dollar scope.

My current target rifle is an AI AT with a Nightforce ATACR scope. I'd rather have that scope on a 900 dollar Tikka CTR over a 900 dollar scope on my AI.

 

[ford8nr]

Interesting thing with scopes and rifles.
Manufacturing processes have gotten better. For rifles that meant better more accurate guns for less $. For scopes that meant more manufactures, better scopes for lots more $$$. I think the mantra spend more on a scope then the rifle was invented by a scope manufacturer. A rifle IS your mechanical accuracy, the scope lets you harness it. Once you get past repeatability and lense coatings it's just a metal tube. Sure range of adjustment and some other niceties on high high end scopes are nice but in my opnion not for the $$s. I've shot old scopes and cheap scopes, glare can be bad and if you're dialing a lot they don't hold up. I've shot high end scopes and never saw much difference after the $1000 mark... Your results may vari.

 

[Nature Boy]

My son shoots his Savage 12 BVSS .223 in F Class matches, usually 600 yards but occasionally out to 1,000. With a Shilen match barrel and proper loads it it very accurate and competitive. He’s achieved a master classification shooting it in registered matches.



Here’s a practice target he laid down at 500 yards.

 

[Jim Watson]

I haven't bought a rifle in some time, all I know is what I read on the internet.
There are a lot of posts on the accuracy of this or that factory rifle. I bet I could be happy with a T3. Ruger will sell you a narly snipper looking riffle that is said to shoot well.
Savage and Remington have the advantage of a multitude of factory and aftermarket options.
I shot F TR with a Savage until they cut the size of the target in half, at which time I put on a better barrel.

 

[ford8nr]

Nature boy, congrats to your son on Master Class !