Training Rifle or Precision Rifle?

[StationOps]

I have a Ruger 10/22 (iron sights) and have outgrown it.

I shot my nephew’s Thompson Center 30-06 and liked it. So looking into a bolt action centerfire.

The options are a howa mini in 7.62x39 with the Stirling Panamax scope or precision rifle eg RPR or Howa HCR (probably in 6.5 CM for either rifle) with a scope TBD.

The Howa rifle is cheaper ($450) and has cheaper ammo option ($0.25/round or less), but 7.62x39 is a shorter range round.

With the precision rifle, I skip buying the beginner rifle and start right away with higher end rifle. But I spend a lot more money on rifle and ammo ($0.65/round and up). Like twice as much before I even start buying ammo.

I thought the city range only went to 200 yards, but the website says they have hanging steel at 550 and 750 yards, so I can shoot long range (I think).

 

[z7]

What kind of accuracy do you want? A 223 will make a great trainer and precision rifle. 750 is possible but the wind will be frustrating

500 should be “easy” with good ammo (77 grain match ammo)

If cost is a concern I would seriously consider a 223, and/or start reloading

I would look at 223, 224 Valkyrie, 6.5 creedmore or 308 win for calibers

 

[Labguy47]

Doesn't CMP still sell those .308 Garands for $750? A 308 is a much flatter shooting round and will definitely take you out to 800m. And being a common caliber has to to be cheaper than credmore rounds.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Forget any Howa package with a scope. Their scopes are throw away. Their rifles aren't however. I have several Howa's, best bang for the buck in a bolt gun right now.

Hunting and LRP are two different things entirely. Sporters are stocked for field use and usually have lighter barrels. LRP rifles are stocked for benchrest with lots of adjustments with heavy barrels. You need to choose one or the other.

In order to achieve any skill at LRP you will need to shoot a lot. I shoot 2-3K a year and I'm not really a serious LRP shooter.

I would go slowly here given you don't seem to have a lot of experience with either. 7.62x39 is a nice 200 yard hunting cartridge. You can buy good hunting ammo for it if you choose to hunt. You can also learn a lot about LRP by shooting that cartridge past it's effective range, say 300-400 yards. Get yourself a good mil dot scope and learn to use it. Spend at least as much on your scope as you do your rifle.

LRP and Creedmoor is all the rage these days. It takes some money to get geared up for LRP. Any good LRP cartridge is going to be expensive to shoot, especially if you don't reload. Creedmoor is a good LRP cartridge but there are others that are cheaper to shoot. You can shoot LRP with a 308 or even a 5.56. 500 yards is doable with either.

I get really disgusted with the hype on the internet and the advertising of LRP shooting. To do that effectively one needs a good 1 moa rifle and a good scope. You aren't going to get into that game for under 1K and add a few thousand dollars for ammo annually.

Think about that before you get in over your head.

 

[Varminterror]

Doesn't CMP still sell those .308 Garands for $750? A 308 is a much flatter shooting round and will definitely take you out to 800m. And being a common caliber has to to be cheaper than credmore rounds.

That’s kinda like telling a guy roller skates are cheaper than bicycles when he asked “what bike should I buy for cycle racing?”

 

[Varminterror]

I get really disgusted with the hype on the internet and the advertising of LRP shooting. To do that effectively one needs a good 1 moa rifle and a good scope. You aren't going to get into that game for under 1K and add a few thousand dollars for ammo annually.

I don’t think this is true outside the context of competitive long range shooting. A guy can buy a $300-400 Savage 12, Ruger American, or Rem 700 ADL in 6.5 Creedmoor, capable out of the box of 3/4moa or less, put a $400 scope from any of a dozen manufacturers, and shoot 1,200yrds with fine success. They won’t have AI mag compatibility for fast and flawless feeding, and won’t have a FFP optic to keep their sub tensions consistent regardless of zoom, so they’d be at a huge disadvantage for Precision Rifle competition, and they won’t have the weight and stock design to ride the bags for bench rest, nor the optic clarity, but if you throw a 24” gong at 1,200yrds, give me a few boxes of Hornady or Prime factory ammo, and a chronograph, have no doubt I’d make reliable impacts within a few rounds with a Bushnell Engage on a Rem 700 ADL.

For the OP:

I wouldn’t waste time with the 7.62x39 Howa. The same rifle in 223rem might be a more viable option, and it could get you out to 750yrds with ease. There are Howa’s in 6.5 Grendel, and I believe a CZ 527 Varmint with a precision rifle stock in the Grendel now too - best options yet.

The economics seem to make sense when you compare a $450 trainer and a $800 primary, but if you get very serious about long range shooting, or if you have interest in competition of one type or another, none are great options. The RPR can hang in the right hands, but usually the right hands know to reach for something better. It’s not a good option for benchrest by form either. If you did find interest later in a higher class rifle, then a trainer stops making sense. The ammo cost between the two isn’t enough to pay back against the cost of two rifles and scopes, and buying new barrels as you wear out your old is a lot cheaper than an equivalent training rifle.

If you just want to hit targets at 750yrds for fun, get a CZ or Howa in 6.5 Grendel or 223rem and go have a ball.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I don’t think this is true outside the context of competitive long range shooting. A guy can buy a $300-400 Savage 12, Ruger American, or Rem 700 ADL in 6.5 Creedmoor, capable out of the box of 3/4moa or less, put a $400 scope from any of a dozen manufacturers, and shoot 1,200yrds with fine success. They won’t have AI mag compatibility for fast and flawless feeding, and won’t have a FFP optic to keep their sub tensions consistent regardless of zoom, so they’d be at a huge disadvantage for Precision Rifle competition, and they won’t have the weight and stock design to ride the bags for bench rest, nor the optic clarity, but if you throw a 24” gong at 1,200yrds, give me a few boxes of Hornady or Prime factory ammo, and a chronograph, have no doubt I’d make reliable impacts within a few rounds with a Bushnell Engage on a Rem 700 ADL.

How long have you been shooting? The OP doesn't even own a centerfire rifle and probably doesn't know why someone would want a chronograph or spotting scope for LRP.

Nothing like jumping off the 10 meter board before you know how to swim.

I didn't mention the spotting scope either. Maybe he knows someone who has one.

 

[StationOps]

If you just want to hit targets at 750yrds for fun, get a CZ or Howa in 6.5 Grendel or 223rem and go have a ball.

Thanks for all the replies! So far this seems to be the summation of the advice I'm going to follow.

The choice of caliber is still up in the air. 6.5 Grendel has inexpensive steel cased ammo, but is pricey if shooting brass. Not sure why I'm so resistant to 223 rem. Vague desire to use something with a bit more oomph in case I someday go hunting with the rifle?

Choice of rifles in 6.5 Grendel limited to Ruger, Howa or CZ. Folks complain about Ruger stocks, and others have mentioned the bolt throw on the CZ can interfere with the optics, so I'd be limited to the Howa.

I'll just save more money and take my time on a final decision.

 

[z7]

Buy for the 90%, not the 10%
Much like 22lr, centerfire accuracy depends on ammo quality, the cheaper steel cases Grendel ammo probably won’t shoot as good as more expensive brass cases ammo, particularly at distance

Same with 223, 55g fmj is cheap, but not super accurate st 500 yds

 

[Rogue909]

FWIW...
I bought a Ruger mini 30 to shoot cheap 7.62x39 for practice.

Turns out cheap 7.62 doesn't shoot well. Maybe you'll have better luck in a bolt but I ended up hand loading to get decent accuracy. Now my mini (+my error) can shoot a 3"~ grp at 100 yds. I wanted to handload so I'm happy with it, but my goal of a cheap plinker didn't exactly work out.

So I would be weary of relying on cheap 7.62 to base your decision.

 

[FL-NC]

I would recommend 223 or 308 for ammo accessibility and price. This opens you up to AR10's or Ar15's from PSA, or if you prefer a bolt action,there are fine offerings out there like the Mossberg MVP series (and use AR mags), Ruger Americans, or the many options from Savage. On the high end, the Ruger precision rifle is a fine choice. If you plan on reaching out past 300-400 yards, consider the price and quality of your scope and ammunition, as these will be as important if not more than the rifle.

 

[Varminterror]

How long have you been shooting? The OP doesn't even own a centerfire rifle and probably doesn't know why someone would want a chronograph or spotting scope for LRP.

Nothing like jumping off the 10 meter board before you know how to swim.

More LRP nonsense.

I guess I've seen enough - firsthand - by taking new shooters out to long range to realize that it's not "nonsense" to realize a newbie can be successful at long range, even on their first day. I've conducted rifle courses, including intro to long range courses, for several years, and I typically take students out as far as they can. Most of these folks are either brand new, never fired a shot, or somewhere between, "yeah, I shot a bit with my grandpa when I was a kid," and "eh, I've shot a bit from the hood of my truck at 100yrds to get ready for deer season." It's exceedingly rare I can't take these students to 800 or 1000yrds with whatever rifle they brought, and get them on 66% IPSC's, with a 24" check target.

Here's a photo from a one-on-one course I did last summer - the kid is a former intern/employee of mine, he called me and wanted to learn how to shoot, wanted to build his own long range AR. So when the OP asks about shooting a low cost cartridge out to 750yrds, I can point to this picture as evidence of success - that day was the first time he had ever shot a rifle, and those targets were shot at 800yrds, with a 6.5 Grendel AR he'd learned how to build the day before, running factory Hornady Black ammunition. It's an expensive rifle, but the precision with factory ammo is really no different than I've ever delivered with a $350 Remington 700 ADL. He only shot about 50 rounds that day before some bad weather rolled in, so those shots on these targets were somewhere within his first 30-40 rounds he had ever fired in his life. I'm not that great of a long range shooter, and certainly not that great of a long range instructor, so I take no credit for anything but facilitating knowledge transfer and access to the long range - the kid took the shots.



So again - I have EVERY confidence I can take a new shooter with less than $1,000 in a rifle and optic out to 750yrds with factory ammo on a 24" target on their very first day. Anyone can read online that they need 1) a ballistic calculating app or website, 2) an accurate muzzle velocity, and 3) a solid BC. BC is available online from the manufacturer, confirmed in online forums. Velocity is as simple as a $100 ProChrono Digital. Ballistic calculators are available for free, both as browser based or app.

Can they hit a 1/4MOA Mover at 15mph in a gusting 10-15mph full value wind at 1,000yrds? Nope. Is that what the OP asked about? Nope.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I guess I've seen enough - firsthand - by taking new shooters out to long range to realize that it's not "nonsense" to realize a newbie can be successful at long range, even on their first day. I've conducted rifle courses, including intro to long range courses, for several years, and I typically take students out as far as they can. Most of these folks are either brand new, never fired a shot, or somewhere between, "yeah, I shot a bit with my grandpa when I was a kid," and "eh, I've shot a bit from the hood of my truck at 100yrds to get ready for deer season." It's exceedingly rare I can't take these students to 800 or 1000yrds with whatever rifle they brought, and get them on 66% IPSC's, with a 24" check target.

Here's a photo from a one-on-one course I did last summer - the kid is a former intern/employee of mine, he called me and wanted to learn how to shoot, wanted to build his own long range AR. So when the OP asks about shooting a low cost cartridge out to 750yrds, I can point to this picture as evidence of success - that day was the first time he had ever shot a rifle, and those targets were shot at 800yrds, with a 6.5 Grendel AR he'd learned how to build the day before, running factory Hornady Black ammunition. It's an expensive rifle, but the precision with factory ammo is really no different than I've ever delivered with a $350 Remington 700 ADL. He only shot about 50 rounds that day before some bad weather rolled in, so those shots on these targets were somewhere within his first 30-40 rounds he had ever fired in his life. I'm not that great of a long range shooter, and certainly not that great of a long range instructor, so I take no credit for anything but facilitating knowledge transfer and access to the long range - the kid took the shots.

View attachment 803451

So again - I have EVERY confidence I can take a new shooter with less than $1,000 in a rifle and optic out to 750yrds with factory ammo on a 24" target on their very first day. Anyone can read online that they need 1) a ballistic calculating app or website, 2) an accurate muzzle velocity, and 3) a solid BC. BC is available online from the manufacturer, confirmed in online forums. Velocity is as simple as a $100 ProChrono Digital. Ballistic calculators are available for free, both as browser based or app.

Can they hit a 1/4MOA Mover at 15mph in a gusting 10-15mph full value wind at 1,000yrds? Nope. Is that what the OP asked about? Nope.

I see several things here that you fail to address.

The first is the cost of ammo. 6.5 Grendel is about 0.80/rd. Shooter used 30-40 rounds to accomplish the LRP goal. By my calculations he shot $40 worth of ammo. Lets say he wants to shoot 1K in year which isn't unheard of for LRP. That's $800 worth of factory ammo. Reloading is a losing proposition for about the first year or two so that isn't the answer either for a new shooter.

Was the shooter using his own chrono and spotting scope? Another LRP added expense. I'm not sure how you know where those rounds are going at 800 yds without a spotting scope, especially in a plowed field where the target appears to be. Generally it takes a spotter because recoil limits a shooters ability to see the impact.

I think you may be off a little in your estimated cost to get geared up for LRP. It matters little though because the OP said he was waiting awhile before he purchased.

This is actually a good discussion in any event however. Several things were pointed out that I failed to consider.

I'm glad that you had the time and inclination to tutor a new shooter. Never a bad thing and we need lots more of that.

 

[Varminterror]

Was the shooter using his own chrono and spotting scope? Another LRP added expense. I'm not sure how you know where those rounds are going at 800 yds without a spotting scope, especially in a plowed field where the target appears to be.

I take it you’ve NEVER fired a shot into an early season wheat field. Bullet splash in that field kicks up dust as big as a man. He bought the chrony, hence using a ProChrono instead of my LabRadar. Spotting scope isn’t needed in a dusty field with a 24x scope. I called his misses for him all morning using a 7x Sig Kilo rangefinder or the 4-16x44 rifle scope I had along with me, and he spotted his shots on target with his 6-24x riflescope.

I have done this same class with dozens of students in the last ~15yrs. Each and every one of those students/groups have been starting out from scratch and starting with entry level stuff, and every one has been successful.

Personally, I shot 600/1000 benchrest and F-class for years before I ever owned a spotting scope. I only bought my first spotter when I started shooting Service Rifle with open sights, about 18yrs ago. I have spotted at most Precision Rifle matches the last two years with 12x or 15x binoculars.

Bad advice from I nexperienced people like you discourages guys from trying long range shooting, and it’s tragic. Competing in long range matches is a completely different animal, but if you just want to shoot out to 1,000yrds on 24” steel, it doesn’t require an expensive rifle, magical marksmanship skills, tons of high volume firing practice, or a caisson full of expensive gear to successfully send rounds to 1,000yrds after steel. It’s just silly to stand up on that soap box and discourage others. I realize, a lot of guys build this illusion in their head because they don’t know how to shoot long range, and are happy to have an excuse to never try.

A Bushnell Engage on a CZ 527 in 6.5 Grendel, sitting on a Harris knock off bipod and a sock full of rice, shooting a couple hundred rounds per year, with a ProChrono digital and a set of $150-250 Nikon or Bushnell binoculars will get anyone who can stop themselves from JERKING a trigger making hits on a 24” gong at 750.

 

[MistWolf]

I recently discovered there was a 1000 yard range with steel a half hour from my house. I don't have a spotting scope or chrony. I don't even have a bipod or rifle rest. But I'm going to get a couple boxes of175 gr Matchkings for my 308, stuff a rolled up jacket under the forearm and try it anyway.

StationOps, get a 308 Win, 223/5.56 or 6.5 Creed. The 308 will be the easiest to hear hits on steel, the 223/5.56 cheapest to shoot with the least recoil, the 6.5 Creed will hit harder than the 223 and recoil less than the 308. My favorite bolt action is the Remington 700. I like how the action feels when working it. I like how they feel when I bring them to my shoulder. After decades of use, the Remington 700 has a familiar feel. But you have to decide what works best for you.

 

[bfoosh006]

I would skip the 7.62x39 for accuracy reasons... very few cheap 7.62x39 factory rounds shoot small enough groups to help you learn to shoot well. You would spend more time wondering if you missed or did the ammo suck.

For a beginner , a good .223 / 5.56 AR is a economical route... ( Palmetto State Armory )

A decent 6.5CM is the direction I would go. While not the cheapest rifle to learn with... Hornday AG 140gr bulk 200rd cans can be bought for $140 bucks.

IMHO, it is far easier to figure out what you are doing wrong , with an precise shooting rifle.

That ammo has proven, to me, to be a VERY good learners ammo. It is more then capable of tiny groups.
10rds, 100yds, benched , scoped, bagged front and rear... PSA PA65 with a Criterion barrel...yes, I flubbed the 10th shot.


And here is the PSA factory barrel, 10rd group from 2 weekends ago... same 100yds, etc. (I don't know why it is sideways... )

 

[CoalTrain49]

A Bushnell Engage on a CZ 527 in 6.5 Grendel, sitting on a Harris knock off bipod and a sock full of rice, shooting a couple hundred rounds per year, with a ProChrono digital and a set of $150-250 Nikon or Bushnell binoculars will get anyone who can stop themselves from JERKING a trigger making hits on a 24” gong at 750.

That tells me all I need to know about your idea of LRP.

 

[z7]

Recoil can be managed, I spot my own shots and make wind corrections at 600-800 yds with a 308 win off of barricades in prs matches



Rifles only and shlowlight have video teasers on YouTube for recoil management where they can call/spot their own shots with a 308 at intermediate and long range. That is not crazy

To the op, all you NEED to shoot long range and have fun doing it is: an accurate rifle (1moa or better)
Accurate ammo in an acceptable caliber (6.5’s 223 rem, 224 Valkyrie, 308 win, etc)
A rifle scope that has the adjustment built in to reach your desired distance OR a reticle that provides reliable hold over

a way to hold the gun in the front and the rear

There are many ways to accomplish this, but many things are Nice to have, very few are necessary

 

[LNK]

Buy for the 90%, not the 10%
Much like 22lr, centerfire accuracy depends on ammo quality, the cheaper steel cases Grendel ammo probably won’t shoot as good as more expensive brass cases ammo, particularly at distance

Same with 223, 55g fmj is cheap, but not super accurate st 500 yds

We did have to qualify on the KD range at 200-300-500 yds with 55 grain ball ammo. This was with an M16a1 with a 1-12 twist. Granted there wasn't much energy at left at 500yds. But we did hit it for 49/50 possible points. Of course young eyes, open sights. 1984 and still young......

 

[z7]

We did have to qualify on the KD range at 200-300-500 yds with 55 grain ball ammo. This was with an M16a1 with a 1-12 twist. Granted there wasn't much energy at left at 500yds. But we did hit it for 49/50 possible points. Of course young eyes, open sights. 1984 and still young......

55g ball ammo is decent, but will leave you disappointed when talking long range precision, minute of man at 300-500 yds it works, 10” plate at 500 yds, that 55g ammo will show it’s inferior Aerodynamics

I shoot 55g fmj in 3 gun, shooting out to 400yds at big pieces of steel

 

[wanderinwalker]

My suggestion would be to go shooting with some friends who will let you try out different kinds of rifles and equipment. Get to some ranges, find what's available to shoot, what you actually like to shoot, and then decide what to get from there.

A precision rifle is going to be set-up to shoot from a bench, rest, bipod or similar supported position. They're fantastic for what they're meant to do. But it may turn out you enjoy running-and-gunning more. In which case that precision rifle isn't very helpful.

And a sporter weight hunting rifle is a dream to carry afield, but not a great choice for long strings of fire at the range. Again, it's built for a purpose, and pressing it into service in another role can be done, but it does show its limitations.

I actually hate to throw out recommendations, but I'm going to anyway: I might almost suggest a good AR carbine and sighting system to get started. It should offer you enough flexibility to try a number of different things, to learn what you enjoy doing. With the bonus of readily available, comparatively inexpensive ammo, with low recoil and generally useable accuracy. Also, if you end up venturing into reloading later on, the .223 cartridge is fairly easy to work with.

 

[StationOps]

Reading some of these replies brings to mind a comment Brandon Sanderson (fantasy author) made in one his writing classes (you can find it on youtube, last time I looked). He was talking about different goals for the class and he said it’s perfectly ok to not want to publish. You can write because it’s fun. He made the comparison to somebody who plays basketball at the gym twice a week. Nobody thinks to ask somebody like that “When you are trying out for the NBA?” They play basketball because it’s fun.

Extending the analogy, one player only plays basketball twice a week and wears cheap shoes that he only replaces when they need more duct tape. Another player buys new $200 shoes every six weeks, takes private lessons, and goes to a crossfit gym to build his speed and endurance. The second player may be a ringer in the gym league, but neither will ever play for the NBA.

I don’t think ‘cinderella story, former greenskeeper comes out of nowhere, he’s about to win the US Open’ is in my future in any sport. That’s what I need to keep in mind as I make my choices.

A choice which I have delayed. Work got busy and it’s been easy to put off doing anything. Mostly been looking at scopes and carefully reading rifle reviews. Leaning towards a Howa Mini in 223 - though wondering about a Thompson Center with a Boyd’s stock upgrade.

Btw, if the ammo box says 223 Remington (5.56x45mm) is safe for the 223?

Nobody I know has a lot of bolt actions. My nephew has his Thompson Center 30-06 and he’s 1000 miles away. Another friend might have bolt action rifles. He used to compete in three gun and certainly has pistols and ARs. But he has a 2 year old and doesn’t shoot that much. Most of my friends can’t afford shooting or would rather go to Europe.

I shot my nephew’s AR-15 and it was, um, dull. Getting an AR 15 is not an option.

 

[drobs]

A few years back I was hitting a steel gong at 700yds with my Springfield M1A standard, South African Surplus 7.62x51 ammo, with Iron Sights from sandbags.
Sure it took some cranking up of the elevation knob on the rear sight plus some spotter rounds kicking up dirt, but it really wasn't all that hard.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Btw, if the ammo box says 223 Remington (5.56x45mm) is safe for the 223?

Howa bolt rifles are .223. I won't shoot 5.56 NATO in mine but I've read that lots of people do it. The freebore in the 5.56 NATO chamber is much longer to accommodate 80 grain bullets. If you stick with 55-62 grain bullets you should be OK. The case dimensions are the same.

 

[Manny]

You have definite access to a 200 yard range and possible access to 550 and/750 yard. Those ranges are well within the capabilities of .223 or .308, both very proven target rounds with a wide variety of target ammo widely available. They’re also very easy on barrel and give very long life. The 6.5CM will shoot a bit flatter and is an advantage for 800+ yard shooting but is far harder on barrels. No real advantage I see for what the OP is able to do.

I think a good .308 would serve well for a long time at a reasonable cost. A chassis rifle like an RPR would be an exceptional way to go if you can afford it. Might also consider a Ruger American Predator rifle in the AI magazine version is about half the price of the RPR which would pay for a nice scope and maybe even a good bipod.