Help with DWM Identification

[spencerhut]

Came across this and not sure what I have. Pulled the metal from the stock to clean it since it was filthy from years of storage. I thought it was a typical sporterized Mauser, it is not.
Original blue. No marks of any kind from modifications to the metal. Metal appears to be all original. The Lyman front and rear sight are in great shape, no modifications to install them, no extra holes anywhere.
Seems to be a 7x57mm Mauser.
Serial Number 68. Really? This thing is plastered with 68 on everything down to the stock. The wood to metal fit was so tight I thought it was glass bedded, it is not.
Anyone . . . ?

 

[vaupet]

really puzzled, some of the marking seem to be belgian,
I'm not a specialist, but these are possible explanantion:

The little crown is Belgian,
The letter N with crown above is a marking refering to the person who prooffired the rifle
The 2.4gG.B.P. is a reference to the maximum load
The St.m.G is more tipical for marking of the German army refering to the unit that uses the rifle. These markings were tipical for early 20e century

This rifles probably predates WWI or is a wartime production, big chance it was produced in occupied liege/fn for the german army

here are some interesting links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Waffen_und_Munitionsfabriken
and http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html
http://olderthendirt.proboards.com/thread/4186/dwm-commercial-98-mauser

But I am in now way a specialist so I could be way of mark here

It sure seems to be an historical piece

>> I have to correct myself already: it seems like the Germans used the crown over N as a sign for Nitro power proof:
http://www.dsb.de/media/PDF/Recht/Sprengstoffrecht/Beschusszeichen.pdf

 

[krinko]

See page 58 of "The Standard Directory Of Proof Marks", where the mark on the left side receiver ring, with the exception of the small "N", is given as "...smokeless powder proof for rifled barrel with a steel jacketed bullet, in use since July 23, 1893."
It's German.
-----krinko

 

[Jim Watson]

(Crown)N 2.4 g GBP/StmG is the smokeless proof and load description used 1893-1912.

2.4 grammes is indeed the load for a 7x57 but I would want to confirm it with a chamber cast or at least a bore slug.
Is the barrel stepped or tapered? Is it marked? Is there an open sight or indication one was removed to make way for the peep?
It would have been easy to put a .257 Roberts barrel on.


The Lyman bolt stop peep sight and external serial numbers point toward a sporterized military rifle but if it were a 1908 Serbian or Brazilian, it would have the appropriate national crest. Unless "scrubbed" when sporterized.

 

[mdThanatos]

The "Crown" over "N" 2,4g G.B.P./St. m.G. is a July 23rd, 1893-1912 smokeless proof applied to a tube that experienced proof with a solid projectile. 2.4 grams of Gewehr Blattchen Pulver(smokeless leaf powder) with a Stahl Mantel Geschoss(steel jacket solid projectile).

Found that from two different sources.

Could be either 7x57 or 7.92x57.

Does the stock looks like it has been sporterized?

 

[tark]

What I find interesting is the number "68", in the second picture, stamped on both the barrel and the receiver. The metal was polished on the receiver before bluing, removing the raised metal around the stamp. This was not done on the barrel's number. On the DWM rifles I have examined, all stamps are polished smooth during finishing. A re-barrel perhaps?

And that Lyman sight? To the best of my limited knowledge DWM never installed any Lyman sights on any of their military rifles, or any other rifle, for that matter. Not at the factory.

Any competent Gunsmith could have installed the Lyman sights on that receiver without leaving any unnecessary holes.

Which leaves the bluing. How do you KNOW that it is original? Are there any markings on the top of the receiver ring, like a crest? Numbers or dates? If the top of the receiver is bare, this rifle is almost certainly not original. Many smith's would grind off the crest on the ring because the customer wanted a clean look. Duplicating the original bluing is easy for a good smith.

I don't mean to denigrate your rifle, it looks like a beautiful piece. But I don't think it left DWM looking like that.

 

[spencerhut]

What I find interesting is the number "68", in the second picture, stamped on both the barrel and the receiver. The metal was polished on the receiver before bluing, removing the raised metal around the stamp. This was not done on the barrel's number. On the DWM rifles I have examined, all stamps are polished smooth during finishing. A re-barrel perhaps?

Not a rebarrel - see additional pictures

And that Lyman sight? To the best of my limited knowledge DWM never installed any Lyman sights on any of their military rifles, or any other rifle, for that matter. Not at the factory.

Agreed, and it goes along with the Lyman front sight, not factory, but it seems to be period correct for the gun. Installed by the user or the importer would be my guess.

Any competent Gunsmith could have installed the Lyman sights on that receiver without leaving any unnecessary holes.

Well yeah, it's a no drill type of sight . . .

Which leaves the bluing. How do you KNOW that it is original? Are there any markings on the top of the receiver ring, like a crest?

Nope, see pictures. I own a gun store, so I've seen a LOT of re-blued guns, a lot. That receiver ring is as round and perfect as the day DWM made it. I can find no indication of the re-profiling that occurs when a crest is smoothed out.

Numbers or dates? If the top of the receiver is bare, this rifle is almost certainly not original. Many smith's would grind off the crest on the ring because the customer wanted a clean look. Duplicating the original bluing is easy for a good smith.

No dates I could find. The proof marks on the left of the receiver ring indicate pre 1912 manufacture. No crest on commercial / sporter Mauser's, from my understanding, is not unusual at all.
I did a complete tear-down and sonic tank clean and all the small parts have good indications of original finish wear and the majority of the fire blue remaining. Just about every part on the gun has a "68" on it.
I left the wood at the shop, it looks very similar to this but no checkering and still has the original steel butt plate. Stock is also marked "68"

 

[Offfhand]

The receiver sight does not appear to be a Lyman. More probably European or UK(Parker Hale?) Is there a maker's name on sight? That would be a clue to rifle's background.

 

[spencerhut]

Says Lyman right on it, so does the front sight.

 

[krinko]

http://olderthendirt.proboards.com/thread/4186/dwm-commercial-98-mauser

One similar to yours, same proof. Good news for you, perhaps.
-----krinko

 

[Offfhand]

Thanks for info on Lyman sight. Did a quick search: It's a model 35 and was listed in Lyman catalogs in early 1900's. A couple of years ago one sold on ebay for $390.

 

[spencerhut]

That is the exact stock as on mine.

 

[spencerhut]

Thanks for info on Lyman sight. Did a quick search: It's a model 35 and was listed in Lyman catalogs in early 1900's. A couple of years ago one sold on ebay for $390.
I was having a hell of a time figuring out what is was. Very little information on the sight I could find.
Here is a close up

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, the barrel is numbered to the gun and has period proof marks, so it is original.

The barrel sight base is for a European two or three leaf express sight, not a military tangent or ladder sight. The front sight base looks like a regular Mauser military but with a Lyman bead substituted for the European barleycorn.

I now consider it to be a German sporting rifle with sights upgraded by an American.

 

[spencerhut]

I now consider it to be a German sporting rifle with sights upgraded by an American.

Should I dump any money or time into it? The stock really needs some love, not beyond hope, but it's warped a bit.

 

[Float Pilot]

Warped or cast-off ???? I have seen more than a few sporting rifles from that era with intentionally cast-off stocks.

 

[spencerhut]

Warped or cast-off ???? I have seen more than a few sporting rifles from that era with intentionally cast-off stocks.

It warped at the the other end. The forend on the right front warped enough to crack it. The crack needs to be fixed or the stock replaced.

 

[Float Pilot]

By the way, I think the original rear sight looked like this rear sight from an Oberndorf Mauser sporting rifle ( 9x57mm) made around 1912

 

[Float Pilot]

Bummer about the stock... Old Mausers make me all hot and bothered. If it were mine I would find an old Parker Hale or FN sporting rifle stock, or even start with a custom stock blank. I have an old Parker Hale Safari Rifle stock, which would look nice but the magazine-well cut out was lengthen for a long Rigby cartridge. I would hate to see that wonderful DWM metal separated or modified. If I lived closer I would be burning rubber to come over and hold it....Not to mention be making all sorts of offers

 

[Float Pilot]

Some of your photos show the rifle with a single trigger and yet you posted another showing the rifle with the optional double (set) triggers. Tow of my rifles have the double set triggers. Which by the way are a big pain in the butt to keep them working in weather changes. So what does your DWM short stocked sporter rifle have now for triggers???.
BTW DWM Serial number 100 is a 8x57mm also with a Lyman peep. It was a popular upgrade. Many of these rifles were imported by a fellow named Hans Tauscher back before WWI.

 

[spencerhut]

So it's a Mauser Sporter, great. Anyone know where to look up when it was made or what/whom it was made for?
Ballpark value?

The wife brought the stock home from the shop.




And found the original Lyman ad for the sight. Poor quality scan

 

[spencerhut]

Some of your photos show the rifle with a single trigger and yet you posted another showing the rifle with the optional double (set) triggers. Tow of my rifles have the double set triggers. Which by the way are a big pain in the butt to keep them working in weather changes. So what does your DWM short stocked sporter rifle have now for triggers???.
BTW DWM Serial number 100 is a 8x57mm also with a Lyman peep. It was a popular upgrade. Many of these rifles were imported by a fellow named Hans Tauscher back before WWI.

Single trigger, the dbl trigger picture I got of the internet since the stock was at the shop. I was just trying to find a picture of the stock since I forgot it at work. But my wife brought it home, see above post.

 

[Float Pilot]

Here is DWM short stocked sporting rifle #388 notice the rear sight.

 

[spencerhut]

From the K98k Forum

This rifle apparently falls within the earlier discussions we had regarding commercial DWM rifle production.

A fellow collector, Bob T., emailed me the below lastnight:

"Paul: The DWM sporter on the 98k forum today is much like the one I mentioned to you in my e-mails of May 19-20-21. DWM commercial legend on the left side rail, nothing on the top of the ring, standard 21 point something inch (more or less and I can’t remember the exact metric figure just now) military style barrel as used in the Brazilian 1908 7 m/m short rifle. Even serialed on the right side of bbl and receiver as the previous one. One difference is this one has a standard G.98 triggerguard rather than the Argentine 1909 style with the hinged floor plate. Either this one is a replacement, or maybe the parts bin ran out of hinged plates ones). Don’t really recognize the rear sight, but it’s probably a Lyman (certainly Lyman-like) and added in this country. Note that the original folding leaf has been removed from the rear of the barrel. God only knows how it got to the U.S.; its likely original purpose was as a thank-you to the officers of the purchasing commission in some South American country for buying DWM. Bob"

The earlier threads that may prove useful (I assume you have seen them and this is the reason you brought this rifle, and question, to this forum):

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....oduced-Gew-98s (pay attention to post #5)

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....oduced-Gew-98s (Post #10)

 

[Gordon]

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Mines kinda similar, it is a DMW sporter in 8x57 and was made in 1927. It has a similar rear peep . It was a WW2 bring back by a late uncle who used it to get his up state NY deer every year until the late 50s when he bought a 1956 Mannlicher Schoenauer 30-06 . I have shot lots of 4-6 inch 100 yard groups OFFHAND with this and surplus WW2 ammo when I was young and cannot yet bring myself to sell it. I doubt it would fetch $1000 and no interest by the younger generations