Help with ID of old milsurps?

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Yea that 100 year old rifle that has been in two world wars might blow up on you.

When will this stupid myth die.
Yes, clearly the Director of Civilian Marksmanship Program and Julian Hatcher, Chief of Small Arms for the Ordnance Department don't know what they are talking about when they say there is no way to determine which single heat treat receivers are catastrophically brittle and should not be fired.

How many studies and books have you authored on the subject?
 
Few resources that might be useful
NRA grades for antique firearms explained http://oldguns.net/info.htm
1903 specific guides for cartouches (stamps), serial numbers, etc. http://m1903.com/
Mfg. codes for the k98 deciphered here http://mauser98k.internetdsl.pl/kodyen.html
Swedish mauser information http://dutchman.rebooty.com/
Date mfg for 1917 eddystone by serial number http://oldguns.net/sn_php/mildateslookup.php?file=us_m1917edd.dat

I would suggest checking gun broker after identifying your rifles for similar ones. Simpson's Ltd. is a reputable antique firearms dealer along with Checkpoint Charlies and both have their firearms listed and pictured online. Joe Salter is another possible resource although his pricing will be for relatively pristine collector models. You can find their websites by googling.
 
The rifle family was used in two wars. Any specific model has an unknown provenance and may or may not have been well used over time (for both good or ill), may or may not have been re-arsenalled or altered (for good or ill), may or may not have been pulled from service and used for presentation purposes (for good or ill), and so forth.

To assume that you can know anything specific regarding the metallurgy of most any firearm made before the mid-1920's, much less to assert an opinion regarding general mechanical soundness from afar, is polyannish at best and borders on recklessness. More to the point, there are specific documented issues with early 1903 metallurgy that ought not be ignored.

A low number would have been
 
Yes, clearly the Director of Civilian Marksmanship Program and Julian Hatcher, Chief of Small Arms for the Ordnance Department don't know what they are talking about when they say there is no way to determine which single heat treat receivers are catastrophically brittle and should not be fired.

How many studies and books have you authored on the subject?

How many have kaboom....what was the quality of the ammo in the kaboom.

I will operate under the impression that if it has not kaboom by now, it is just as likely to go now as any other rifle from that time.
 
I will operate under the impression that if it has not kaboom by now, it is just as likely to go now as any other rifle from that time.
And you can do that - it's a free country. :)

It is irresponsible, on the other hand, to suggest that others should take the same approach as you when the data doesn't support your approach.
 
Yea that 100 year old rifle that has been in two world wars might blow up on you.

When will this stupid myth die.
Not a myth at all. While the actual percentage of early 03s that did blow was a fraction of 1%, it DID happen. And when they did let go it was in spectacular fashion. They usually shattered and did a good impression of a hand grenade. One even blew while firing a light gallery load. Hatcher's Notebook details the phenomenon quite well
 
How many have kaboom....what was the quality of the ammo in the kaboom.

I will operate under the impression that if it has not kaboom by now, it is just as likely to go now as any other rifle from that time.

Service ammunition of the time was some 10,000 psi less than commercial 30-06 ammo of today. Furthermore steel has a fatigue life. Such is the reason that machine guns and AR15s will eventually start breaking bolt lugs off, even with today’s vastly superior metallurgical science.
 
And you can do that - it's a free country. :)

It is irresponsible, on the other hand, to suggest that others should take the same approach as you when the data doesn't support your approach.

Show me the data
 
Service ammunition of the time was some 10,000 psi less than commercial 30-06 ammo of today. Furthermore steel has a fatigue life. Such is the reason that machine guns and AR15s will eventually start breaking bolt lugs off, even with today’s vastly superior metallurgical science.

So what you say we should not use ANY vintage firearm....not quite correct.

And I never said WHAT. 3006 to use, we all know that *most* modern commercial is not good on a garand.....but there are garand loadings commercially available. Also if you roll your own this opens up a new road to enjoying these old guns.

My point is that at this time it is no more likely to kaboom then anything else of like vintage.
 

Bad link try again.

Or are you looking for this one.

http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

That has this little nugget in it.

Putting Risk Into Perspective

It's hard for people to personalize risk to their own situation. The following are some risks of dying with common place activities that are of similar magnitude to serious injury from the failure of a Springfield receiver.

Risk of One Death per 100,000 population in a Single Year Caused By:

Riding a bicycle 100 miles

Smoking 14 cigarettes

Living 20 months with a smoker

Traveling 1500 miles by automobile

Traveling 10,000 miles by jet aircraft

Life has risks....there is a risk you dropping dead hopping on your keyboard, and only you can choose if you want to be howard huges or live life and enjoy things. I choose to live life. And for me the risk in shooting this rifle WITH CORRECT AMMO is no more "risky" then shooting anything else.

Your life take your chances.

But what I will say is do your own research, read more then just one page or one uninformed post by a keyboard kammando read read read.....then read some more, from good sources....then make your choice and live life or live in a prison away from all that might.....just might now hurt you.
 
Not a myth at all. While the actual percentage of early 03s that did blow was a fraction of 1%, it DID happen. And when they did let go it was in spectacular fashion. They usually shattered and did a good impression of a hand grenade. One even blew while firing a light gallery load. Hatcher's Notebook details the phenomenon quite well

Less then 1%....IIRC less then .7% Out of how many hundreds of thousands.....and some of those that did kaboom had over pressure rounds that ran up to the moon.

Are you willing to toss away something that has a chance of less then 1%.....if you are fine....your life your choice. I will take that risk.....

Again IIRC it was something under 50 rifles that failed....I want to say 20 something kabooms, and I want to say no loss of life, an eye perhaps, some jaw damage.

This one has been around for years....based on this one viewing, and an malfunction of some kind are you ready to give these up.



 
Show me the data
I did. You just decided to discount it because it doesn't fit your needs. And that's OK - just don't suggest that your position is any better supported by data than others. I could just as easily say 'show me the data that all surviving Springfield 1903 rifles are universally safe to shoot'. Of course, you can't. You're acting on faith that anything that could have gone bad already would have, without actually knowing how any given example has / has not been used. You're making a faith-based decision, not a fact based decision. Again - that's OK. It's your life and your choices.

But you really shouldn't have the poor form to ask for facts when facts aren't what you want and aren't what you'll use to make a decision. It's disingenuous, at best.

And I never said WHAT. 3006 to use, we all know that *most* modern commercial is not good on a garand.....but there are garand loadings commercially available. Also if you roll your own this opens up a new road to enjoying these old guns.
You're moving the goal posts. Your original contribution that started the back-and-forth was simple:
Just make sure the '03 is a high number Springfield or Rock Island.......or a Remington. The best shooter '03s are the '03A3s, honestly, as they are made of nickel steel and have better sights- though many folks don't think they are as elegant looking.
Yea that 100 year old rifle that has been in two world wars might blow up on you.

When will this stupid myth die.
You offered no qualifications - just a base assertion that valuing a higher-number 1903 was a myth. You deliberately picked a fight, and you're changing the conditions as you go, to cover your fanny. Well done.

Life has risks....there is a risk you dropping dead hopping on your keyboard, and only you can choose if you want to be howard huges or live life and enjoy things. I choose to live life.
Most of the folk on gun boards are more comfortable with risk than others, as exhibited by what we do both within and external to the firearms community. More to the point, there is a world of difference between prudent and thoughtful risk and uninformed 'hold my beer and watch this' risk taking.

You seem to be pushing back on folk who are advising prudent and fact-based risk taking. Being thoughtful may not be how you want to make decisions, but it's inappropriate to suggest to others than they emulate your approach unless you're willing to back up their choices for them.
 
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So what you say we should not use ANY vintage firearm....not quite correct.

And I never said WHAT. 3006 to use, we all know that *most* modern commercial is not good on a garand.....but there are garand loadings commercially available. Also if you roll your own this opens up a new road to enjoying these old guns.

My point is that at this time it is no more likely to kaboom then anything else of like vintage.

Not at all, I have several vintage rifles that I actively shoot. Ones that do not have a well documented track record with 115 years of data to back it up that they might blow up in my face and kill me or my loved ones.

I won't continue to argue with you. Its like arguing with a tree stump.
 
To put things into perspective, firing an original 150+ year old muzzleloader is even more risky than firing a low-number '03 Springfield. Out of an abundance of caution, both categories should be put out to pasture as far as firing is concerned. This is why we have plenty of reproductions, in the first case, and plenty of high-number Springfields, in the second.
 
The major problem with the study cited at the m1903 site is that the database is incomplete. The U.S. Govt. only tracked failures to about 1929. The army shrank tremendously between 1918 and 1939 to the extent that most rifles were in war reserve for future issuance. Event history models for accurate predictions rely upon two things--one is the during each period studies (day, month, year, etc) that an event has a chance of occuring (in this case kabooms). Rifles in war reserve by definition are not subject to kabooms as they are not used. Thus, the risk should be assessed as far as kabooms related to the number of Springfield 1903's subject to kabooms (the SHT models) that were in use during 1918-1929.

However, that study will not tell you the risk levels of firing a SHT rifle today because a) the U.S. does not use proofing laws that require reproofing of rifles upon transfer of ownership b) very few of the 1903's subsequent history and use can be documented for an individual rifle, c) the other contextual variables when fired such as loads, barrel condition including headspace, external temperature, powder type, alterations (D&T for example), bolt condition (the whole SHT problem also applied to bolts as well), how the shooter was dressed (as far as documenting injuries), etc. and d) there is no requirement that kabooms in rifles be reported to any central statistical agency. Just consider the whole Remington Walker trigger fiasco which only deals with one company in the post-war era. There is no good estimate of how many times that the Walker triggered malfunctioned nor how many injuries etc. occurred because of it. WISQUARS data from the CDC is the closest measure of injuries and deaths but it doesn't distinguish between accidental and homicides caused by long guns.

The long and the short of it, is that the underlying data relied upon by the study only reflects failures during a limited time frame of a unknown sample size of 1903 SHT Springfield rifles. It does not reflect any 1903 kabooms since 1929 in private or in military use when the govt. study ended. We do know from anecdotal accounts of gunsmiths shattering receivers when attempting to drill and tap or remove barrels and of specific instances of individual kabooms that have occurred since 1929 that there are still bad receivers out there but with no one paying the cost, this represents an unknown number (and impossible to know as many of those individuals with direct experience of such has passed on). The event history model requires no missing data and no missing time periods in order to work. Neither condition was met by the 1903 study so its estimates of risk likelihood are of little use.

European nations deal with possibly dangerous old rifles by requiring reproofing of rifles and destruction of those not meeting requirements (or by exporting these rifles to the states). In the U.S., we rely on individuals and organizational warnings to help keep people safe.

On a practical side, a few years ago in my state an individual using handloads miscalculated his hot loads and blew up his firearm at a public range. A fragment of the firearm hit and killed a young bystander. Aside from the legal and financial questions, the death of a child was caused by the actions of the reloader. I would not want that burden even if it was an accident but especially if I contributed to the accident by ignoring safety precautions.

FWIW, I would not fire a late war Arisaka, a Lorcin, a Jimenez, German Mauser, an Italian Carcano 8mm conversion, etc. either. Not worth it.
 
I did. You just decided to discount it because it doesn't fit your needs. And that's OK - just don't suggest that your position is any better supported by data than others. I could just as easily say 'show me the data that all surviving Springfield 1903 rifles are universally safe to shoot'. Of course, you can't. You're acting on faith that anything that could have gone bad already would have, without actually knowing how any given example has / has not been used. You're making a faith-based decision, not a fact based decision. Again - that's OK. It's your life and your choices.

But you really shouldn't have the poor form to ask for facts when facts aren't what you want and aren't what you'll use to make a decision. It's disingenuous, at best.

You're moving the goal posts. Your original contribution that started the back-and-forth was simple:
You offered no qualifications - just a base assertion that valuing a higher-number 1903 was a myth. You deliberately picked a fight, and you're changing the conditions as you go, to cover your fanny. Well done.

Most of the folk on gun boards are more comfortable with risk than others, as exhibited by what we do both within and external to the firearms community. More to the point, there is a world of difference between prudent and thoughtful risk and uninformed 'hold my beer and watch this' risk taking.

You seem to be pushing back on folk who are advising prudent and fact-based risk taking. Being thoughtful may not be how you want to make decisions, but it's inappropriate to suggest to others than they emulate your approach unless you're willing to back up their choices for them.

No your link if faulty and did not work....so you did not.

You are right I picked a fight, another poster said that under 1% of the 1903's had an issue, this is a number I have also read. I find that number to be within acceptable limits for something that is one hundred years old plus. Do you really think that these guns have not been used having been around the planet for that long....yes I have no facts that say this or that rifle has been shot X number of times....just simple common sense tells us that these things have been shot....and shot a few times....yes it is faith but common sense conclusion.....some of us can weigh what history has told us and think....yea I bet with CORRECTLY LOADED AMMO this gun is going to be safe to shoot. Some of us lack the mental ability to make that decision, so I suggest some people take every gun out to be proofed...you never know.

If you have the ability to post up a link that will actually work I would be happy to read it....you see I am open to change my mind where you seem set in your ways and unwilling to see that with 3 million of the things being made you chance of getting one of the 1% is really pretty darn small.....and if we take the "low number" whatever that is because sources do vary the number gets even smaller.....then how many of those are still around.

You seem to be happy making this mole hill into a mountain and that is where I get on my high horse, few things trip my trigger and this is one.

Tell me the answer to this question how many have blown up in the last 10-20-30-40 years that have been VERIFIED to be caused by a brittle receiver, and NO OTHER CAUSE.....then come back and tell me how many other rifles of the same age have had the same thing happen....I bet you are going to find more people that have blown up trapdoors with hot ammo then these things....and I don't know of any of those as well. And ammo that is marked trapdoor safe is on boxes just like grand safe....ammo changed over the years, and is a big factor.

I shoot old guns....I hate....and I use the word HATE most plastic fantastic modern guns....so shooting guns that are over 100 years old is something I really enjoy. I know what can and can't be done, I know how to roll my own, you about have to or go in the poor house shooting some of this odd stuff.

I drifted, home from surgery so I am likely all over the planet with this....but I hope I got my point across.....your chances of blowing up an "low number" springfield is right up there with winning the powerball tonight....sure it could happen but I would not tell your boss to FO on the way out the door tonight.
 
To put things into perspective, firing an original 150+ year old muzzleloader is even more risky than firing a low-number '03 Springfield. Out of an abundance of caution, both categories should be put out to pasture as far as firing is concerned. This is why we have plenty of reproductions, in the first case, and plenty of high-number Springfields, in the second.

You see I am not happy with that....and if you know of a reproduction of a Krag, lee navy, type 99, model 8.....on and on. And I am not sure I agree with that BP has an all together different pressure.....cycle I guess I will say....and as long as you don't go stupid I think you are ok. I shot a very old wheel lock, and it was really a fun day....totally different from anything else I have ever shot. The lee navy (i am still hunting for one of my own) was a rifle pushing all the limits, a real fast mover for the time....and it has had its share of kabooms, more so then the 03, but with it being not as common the internet experts don't get on here and spout half truths on it like they do with the 03.

You really limit yourself to enjoying history and what it was really like shooting the older stuff....I really enjoy black powder in my trapdoor....it is the way it started, and is a very different experience from smokless....you just have to do your own research....and that does not include reading dolts on the forums....even this dolt....read real studies and make your choices.
 
The major problem with the study cited at the m1903 site is that the database is incomplete. The U.S. Govt. only tracked failures to about 1929. The army shrank tremendously between 1918 and 1939 to the extent that most rifles were in war reserve for future issuance. Event history models for accurate predictions rely upon two things--one is the during each period studies (day, month, year, etc) that an event has a chance of occuring (in this case kabooms). Rifles in war reserve by definition are not subject to kabooms as they are not used. Thus, the risk should be assessed as far as kabooms related to the number of Springfield 1903's subject to kabooms (the SHT models) that were in use during 1918-1929.

However, that study will not tell you the risk levels of firing a SHT rifle today because a) the U.S. does not use proofing laws that require reproofing of rifles upon transfer of ownership b) very few of the 1903's subsequent history and use can be documented for an individual rifle, c) the other contextual variables when fired such as loads, barrel condition including headspace, external temperature, powder type, alterations (D&T for example), bolt condition (the whole SHT problem also applied to bolts as well), how the shooter was dressed (as far as documenting injuries), etc. and d) there is no requirement that kabooms in rifles be reported to any central statistical agency. Just consider the whole Remington Walker trigger fiasco which only deals with one company in the post-war era. There is no good estimate of how many times that the Walker triggered malfunctioned nor how many injuries etc. occurred because of it. WISQUARS data from the CDC is the closest measure of injuries and deaths but it doesn't distinguish between accidental and homicides caused by long guns.

The long and the short of it, is that the underlying data relied upon by the study only reflects failures during a limited time frame of a unknown sample size of 1903 SHT Springfield rifles. It does not reflect any 1903 kabooms since 1929 in private or in military use when the govt. study ended. We do know from anecdotal accounts of gunsmiths shattering receivers when attempting to drill and tap or remove barrels and of specific instances of individual kabooms that have occurred since 1929 that there are still bad receivers out there but with no one paying the cost, this represents an unknown number (and impossible to know as many of those individuals with direct experience of such has passed on). The event history model requires no missing data and no missing time periods in order to work. Neither condition was met by the 1903 study so its estimates of risk likelihood are of little use.

European nations deal with possibly dangerous old rifles by requiring reproofing of rifles and destruction of those not meeting requirements (or by exporting these rifles to the states). In the U.S., we rely on individuals and organizational warnings to help keep people safe.

On a practical side, a few years ago in my state an individual using handloads miscalculated his hot loads and blew up his firearm at a public range. A fragment of the firearm hit and killed a young bystander. Aside from the legal and financial questions, the death of a child was caused by the actions of the reloader. I would not want that burden even if it was an accident but especially if I contributed to the accident by ignoring safety precautions.

FWIW, I would not fire a late war Arisaka, a Lorcin, a Jimenez, German Mauser, an Italian Carcano 8mm conversion, etc. either. Not worth it.

You bring up some good points, toss in a Vetterli to your list. And if you are saying "last ditch" Japanese rifles I agree as well, along with some of the last stand german weapons.

The thing I would like to see is some documents on failures in WWII, I have seen very little data in this time frame. We know the marines early in the war used this rifle quite a bit....so it did see service in numbers.

Your last tragic story about the reloader, is a real shame, but I do not think it really has much to do with this specific case, hot loads can blow up anything, and personally have never really understood that. I load to put the hole where I want, some things I start in the middle, others I start at the low end...think krag or carcano that do not have the strongest actions....but this tragic event is caused by someone that made an error....and this can happen with factory ammo as well....we all know the stories of goofy loaded factory ammo...I got one box full of powder, a case with no primer....where the primer went is anyone guess
 
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