Help with my Redding Small Base Full Length Sizing Die (223)

[sequins]

Hello friends,

I recently purchased a Redding small base sizing die in .223 Remington and I'm getting some weird results. I have the standard Redding shell holder as well as the competition Redding set (which increases the shell holder vertical dimension in 0.002" increments from 0.002" to 0.010", essentially pushing the die "farther" from the shell- this is meant to allow for precise shoulder bump without adjusting dies), and I'm comparing my datum line readings using the Redding Instant Indicator tool and the supplied brass milled SAAMI minimum dummy casing.

I'm prepping range pickup brass and I'm going to be firing it in an AR-15 so I got the small base die to get everything to minimum spec. When resizing "known" brass I use the competition body and neck sizers for a more precise fit to my specific chamber, but this is all off the floor at the range fired by who knows what rifle so I wanted to size it to minimum regardless of the cost to brass life. Most of my brass is about 0.010-0.014 above SAAMI minimum on the datum dimension and while I don't expect to get exactly minimum I do want to get close so I purchased the small base die.

Now, here's where it gets interesting: Using a random piece of brass I zero my comparator, then I size that brass, and then I put it back in the comparator to see how much I reduced it by. What's throwing me off is that my shoulder measurement is not moving like I'd expect... With any of the competition shell holders my shoulder measurement is actually increasing, and with the standard shell holder it's holding steady. I seem to be getting about as much shoulder "growth" as the measurement of the competition shell holder, ie. if I use the 0.002" shell holder my shoulder grows 0.002". If I use the standard shell holder I get the same measurement coming in as I get going out.

I find this quite odd and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Is there something I have incorrectly adjusted? Do I have a faulty SAAMI dummy cartridge perhaps? This seems unlikely because unless that fired brass landed on the ground at SAAMI min I'd expect to size it down some. Is something wrong with my sizing die, perhaps the die body is too long and I'm not contacting the shoulder properly? I'm unsure exactly what to troubleshoot but I expected to be significantly resizing my shoulder and if anything I was expecting it to be sized too much to start, not sized zero / growing.

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Screw the die in more.

 

[sequins]

Screw the die in more.

I'm camming over already.

 

[sequins]

I adjusted further to a more aggressive cam-over and I got the measurement down lower, to about 5 thousandths above minimum spec, right where I want it. Perhaps I am meant to accept this much camover and it's just me being a rookie at resizing rifle cases? If I'm getting the right results, despite the "extreme" camover is their any danger to my equipment?

 

[243winxb]

With comp .002" shell holder, the case body is being sized smaller in diameter. This moves the shoulder forward, longer head to datum. The shoulder has not contacted the die yet. Forward movement is stopped by the shell holder contacting the bottom of the fl die.

 

[Walkalong]

the competition Redding set (which increases the shell holder vertical dimension in 0.002" increments from 0.002" to 0.010",

Camming over with which shell holder?


As the case body is sized the shoulder moves forward, and doesn't move back until the die shoulder contacts the case's shoulder.

Didn't you have the same issue earlier, using the wrong shell holder? Or was that someone else?

You should not have to resort to "extreme" cam over.

 

[edwardware]

Sizing the body down will push the shoulder forward, unless the die/shellholder combination pushes it back. Your random piece of brass was already shorter than your die/shellholder combination.

To add to the fun, the shoulder position of your fired brass is not actually the chamber dimension. It's shorter, due to sticking and elastic stretch.

 

[GW Staar]

Are you sure you don't have the Body Die rather than the full length small-base sizer? I haven't used a Redding SB sizer but my RCBS one compensates for that by sizing the shoulder a thousandth or 2, more than the regular sizer. Body dies don't touch the necks, but I thought they still worked the shoulders some?

 

[cfullgraf]

I've found that using s small base sizing die, I get reliable function in my AR platform rifles. I cannot see any difference in the "case measurements" as with the standard sizing dies. But, the small base sized cases work while the "non-small base sized cases" from rifles other than my rifle may not function. I've experienced several function problems during matches to question the use of non-small base dies for re-sizing.

Any way, I tend to not use "range pick up" cases for my AR rifles. I use only cases fired in my rifles or start with new cases.

I small base size every case that I plan to use in my AR rifles. Who knows the history of range pick up cases.

But, I'll admit that my opinions are subjective. Other folks may have different opinions which may be accurate as well.

 

[sequins]

Camming over with which shell holder?


As the case body is sized the shoulder moves forward, and doesn't move back until the die shoulder contacts the case's shoulder.

Didn't you have the same issue earlier, using the wrong shell holder? Or was that someone else?

You should not have to resort to "extreme" cam over.

So the way these redding shell holders work is the top of the shellholder that impacts the die body is the same dimension on their standard, or any of the competition shell holders. The 0.002" increments are how the case slot is milled, setting the case down slightly. This allows me to "move the case down in .002 increments" up to 0.010" lower than the standard shell holder which is the "zero" measurement or standard shell holder height. The idea is that I can start with the 0.010" shell holder, size, try my case in my rifle and if I get a sticky bolt I go to the 0.008", try again, and if still sticky use the 0.006" etc. until I get precisely enough setback to chamber without any stick. The camover is identical whichever shellholder I use.

I'm afraid it was someone else earlier but maybe I can search harder and find that thread (I tried a quick search and no one really posts about their shoulder going the wrong way it seemed, but I'll try again)

I cammed over substantially and got the desired setback but I'm really not used to having ANY camover on my Forster Co-ax, and the amount I'm using feels like a lot to my uneducated hands. I watched some videos to try and see what their camover "looked like" and I dunno it's a feel measurement so impossible to tell visually.

I am certain I'm using the Redding Full Length S-Type Small Base sizing die, as the body die has no stem and the neck die has a micrometer (I have a body die and a neck sizing die as well as my small base full size S-type die).

After getting the desired results perhaps my definition of "extreme camover" is me being a baby about the forces being applied- I've used brand new Starline brass so far and I only neck sized that brass as it was totally in spec originally and I just wanted to uniform the necks from shipping dings, and now I'm loading range pickup as I expand my .223 reloading endeavors so it's my first time full length sizing .223. It feels like I'm camming too much but if it works it works and I was curious if it was possible to do "too much" without it feeling like it's breaking. It feels extremely stiff on the camover but nothing has broken yet and I sized 10 cases in the current position with the correct measurement. I adjusted the camover to be about as much as it could be without it feeling like I was going to break anything raising my ram.

I just got a stuck case though so I'm at an impasse until my stuck case remover kit arrives, but the stuck case makes me think I've got something adjusted wrong still despite the measurements coming out right where I want them (0.003" - 0.005" above SAAMI minimum). I lubed every single one of the 10 rounds and #11 got stuck anyways.

 

[Walkalong]

I know how the shell holder set works, you want the case to fit your chamber, quit worrying about s SAMMI number. Get some way to measure where your shoulder is on a piece of brass fired two or three times with full loads in your rifle and move the shoulder back .002 to .003 and you'll be good.

Or better yet, use this method to set up the sizer/shell holders.

It shows finding the lands, but you can do the same thing for sizing brass to just fit your chamber.

 

[Blue68f100]

Make sure your lubing the brass good when sizing. If not it will feel like it's doing a lot of work, but your not. I use Imperial Sizing Lube for everything that's sized on my SS press.

You should not use brass as a min spec gauge. Only a Go Gauge will give you the right dimension. If you have a case gauge LE Wilson or Sherdian you can use these to see if your pushing the shoulder back far enough. The Wilson has a slot cut which is the min max range. As long as you in this window you good.

If I read it correctly you have stuck a piece of brass in the Body Die (sizing). If this is the case and the stem was not in, you can use a punch to drive the stuck brass out. Just need one smaller than will go through the brass neck.

 

[243winxb]

Tolerance can be defined as the total allowable amount by which a measurement may vary.

Chambers of rifles and dies are some where in the middle of minimum and maximum tolerances.

The RCBS standard fl dies & 1 Redding type S, i have checked , provide around .005" head clearance or cartridge slop in bottle neck cartridges chambers.

So, using your small base die & a standard shell holder should provide a safe, usable sizing. If this set up doesnt allow the range brass to chamber freely in the rifles, its scrap. This is when using a single stage press.
Progressive or turrets presses may give a different sizing.

camover on my Forster Co-ax,

i think the "cam over" is an RCBS thing? Not all brands of press cam over.

 

[GW Staar]

i think the "cam over" is an RCBS thing? Not all brands of press cam over.

That's true, some aren't designed for it, but really "cam over" is just a method to remove any slack between the mechanical linkage. Once that is gone, "more" camover only stresses your press parts. Once metal to metal, something has to give....usually the weakest link in the linkage.....not a good thing. On the other end of that....loose linkage means never being perfectly repeatable.

This is usually where Mr. Guffy comes in and says RCBS presses don't really "cam-over". I've gotten underneath my RockChucker and carefully examined it during "cam-over" and I don't actually "see" it happening, but I sure "feel" it "bumping" over a top of some kind and releasing a little....it feels like a cam over the top and back down. Whether it really is, I don't care, as long as it removes all the slack. RCBS calls it "Cam-over".

 

[Metal God]

If you originally had cam over with firm contact between the die and shell holder. Screwing the die down more would not have increased the shoulder set back .

If the die and shell holder are making contact during cam over . Screwing the die down further can’t push the case up in the die further. Put another way If you’re at zero then make it zero with more pressure you don’t get a negative , you are still only at zero in this case .

My thinking is you adjusted the die and had light cam over with “no” case in the die ??? Once you put a load on the press when actually sizing a case your press flexed/deflected resulting in a gap between the die and shell holder during cam over . This is a very common thing that most never realy notice.

 

[fguffey]

Now, here's where it gets interesting: Using a random piece of brass I zero my comparator, then I size that brass, and then I put it back in the comparator to see how much I reduced it by. What's throwing me off is that my shoulder measurement is not moving like I'd expect... With any of the competition shell holders my shoulder measurement is actually increasing, and with the standard shell holder it's holding steady. I seem to be getting about as much shoulder "growth" as the measurement of the competition shell holder, ie. if I use the 0.002" shell holder my shoulder grows 0.002". If I use the standard shell holder I get the same measurement coming in as I get going out.

I find this quite odd and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

You are assuming the shoulder is being moved, I don't assume I know it is impossible to move the shoulder (shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head) with a die that has case body support. 'NEXT' you are assuming the die is making it to the shell holder. I don't; If the die does not make it to the top of the shell holder the case is not being sized. Some reloaders use light, I use a feeler gage to determine the gap between the bottom of the die to the top of the shell holder.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Screw the die in more.

If the case's ability to resist sizing exceeds the ability of the press to size the case there will always be a gap.

This is usually where Mr. Guffy comes in and says RCBS presses don't really "cam-over".

I have 21 presses, most are Herter presses, all of my Herter presses cam-over. I have 4 different Herter presses from turret, 2 ram, 'U' type and 3s with a Super 3. I also have instructions for cam over presses and I have instructions for non cam-over presses. The instructions are different. I have no ideal why it is so difficult for a reloaders to understand the difference between a cam over press and a non cam over press.

F. Guffey

 

[GW Staar]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Mr. Guffy, sir!

 

[lightman]

While there are all kinds of tools available to measure cases and help you set up your sizing die, I still do it the old fashion way. I start with a fired case from the rifle that I'm loading for and adjust the die so that I have a small gab between the sizing die and shell holder, maybe 1/32nd, and start sizing the case. I look at the case neck for the sized part and adjust the die down until the sized part meets the shoulder and then give the die an additional fraction of a turn. Range brass is fired from many different chambers, some tight and some loose, and you may have to turn the die down a little more than you do for your fired brass.

You should go back to your standard shell holder and try this method. I've never seen the need for those competition shell holders. The few times that I need something other than a standard shell holder I needed less material on it, not more. These times were very rare.

 

[jmorris]

What's throwing me off is that my shoulder measurement is not moving like I'd expect...

Remove the expander from the die and see what happens. If that reduces the dimension, you are pulling the neck as you extract the expander from the case.

I agree with the chasing numbers folks, just make them all fit. Then you can measure and record numbers for your future use.

 

[GW Staar]

^^^^ Of course!.....shoulda thought to mention that possibility. Been sizing with bushings lately.....then "M" style expanders so haven't had that happen for a while.

 

[JFrank]

Hello friends,

I recently purchased a Redding small base sizing die in .223 Remington and I'm getting some weird results. I have the standard Redding shell holder as well as the competition Redding set (which increases the shell holder vertical dimension in 0.002" increments from 0.002" to 0.010", essentially pushing the die "farther" from the shell- this is meant to allow for precise shoulder bump without adjusting dies), and I'm comparing my datum line readings using the Redding Instant Indicator tool and the supplied brass milled SAAMI minimum dummy casing.

I'm prepping range pickup brass and I'm going to be firing it in an AR-15 so I got the small base die to get everything to minimum spec. When resizing "known" brass I use the competition body and neck sizers for a more precise fit to my specific chamber, but this is all off the floor at the range fired by who knows what rifle so I wanted to size it to minimum regardless of the cost to brass life. Most of my brass is about 0.010-0.014 above SAAMI minimum on the datum dimension and while I don't expect to get exactly minimum I do want to get close so I purchased the small base die.

Now, here's where it gets interesting: Using a random piece of brass I zero my comparator, then I size that brass, and then I put it back in the comparator to see how much I reduced it by. What's throwing me off is that my shoulder measurement is not moving like I'd expect... With any of the competition shell holders my shoulder measurement is actually increasing, and with the standard shell holder it's holding steady. I seem to be getting about as much shoulder "growth" as the measurement of the competition shell holder, ie. if I use the 0.002" shell holder my shoulder grows 0.002". If I use the standard shell holder I get the same measurement coming in as I get going out.

I find this quite odd and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Is there something I have incorrectly adjusted? Do I have a faulty SAAMI dummy cartridge perhaps? This seems unlikely because unless that fired brass landed on the ground at SAAMI min I'd expect to size it down some. Is something wrong with my sizing die, perhaps the die body is too long and I'm not contacting the shoulder properly? I'm unsure exactly what to troubleshoot but I expected to be significantly resizing my shoulder and if anything I was expecting it to be sized too much to start, not sized zero / growing.

Thanks in advance for the help!

If I’m not mistaken this is a classic example of brass not being fully fire formed to your chamber therefore it’s still growing.
The answer is not to try and bump the shoulder, just size to chamber freely and move on.

 

[JFrank]

I adjusted further to a more aggressive cam-over and I got the measurement down lower, to about 5 thousandths above minimum spec, right where I want it. Perhaps I am meant to accept this much camover and it's just me being a rookie at resizing rifle cases? If I'm getting the right results, despite the "extreme" camover is their any danger to my equipment?

You shouldn’t have to add extreme force

 

[kwg020]

I haven't read all of the replys but I gave up on "camming over" years ago. I screw my sizing dies into the locking collar until there is 3 threads showing above the collar and then I lock my collar. That becomes a known position. You get more than 50% of the lever moving down to where you can apply most of the pressure to squeeze the brass and save any additional effort. The next issue is getting your shoulder pushed back far enough to chamber successfully. The more you squeeze the brass the longer it grows. You need to ask yourself, do you really need the small base dies ?? If you deicide you do, then you need to move the case further into the die until the shoulder of the brass contacts the inside shoulder of the die.

I have taken some of the top of the shell holder off so the shell holder is "shorter" and allows the brass to move further into the resizer. I used my bench grinder and some fine emery paper. I took a chance and used the side of the wheel to take some metal off of the top of the shell holder. (NO, I don't recommend this but I don't have a lathe) and then I smoothed the shell holder off with the emery paper. The shell holder is really hard metal and emery paper would take days to get it down by 1 or 2 thousands.

I have used a body die for .223. The body die does move the shoulder back and it does not do anything with the neck. (Mine actually gives the case base just a small amount of squeeze which my guess this is where the case gets pushed up to the inside shoulder of the resizer) You can then use your full length resizer to deprime and finish the brass or you can use a neck resizer. I use RCBS glycerin to lube my brass.

kwg

 

[JFrank]

Oh my word
Someone needs a lesson on setting up a die .