Here are 7 critical lessons for anyone who owns or carries a gun.

[buck460XVR]

Please, don't go chasing down suspicious guys walking through the neighborhood because there isn't a LEO on scene yet. That is beyond your scope.

As a neighbor and a friend of folks that live nearby me, anytime I see someone suspicious involved in a suspicious activity in the neighborhood, I will keep an eye on him until I determine they are not a threat or until the cops arrive. Have done so in several cases. I believe that is part of being a neighbor, not being a wannabe cop. I do not chase them down, nor do I confront them. I don't have a shiny CCW badge and I don't need one, because I'm only doing what good neighbors do, they look out for each other and their property. If the person I'm keeping an eye on sneaks up behind me and attacks me while I'm legally observing activity in the neighborhood , he is the criminal, not me.

A few years back, I witnessed a kid go thru a stop sign and T-Bone a Mini-Van. The kid in the truck took off and fled the scene. I checked the ladies in the Mini-Van and made sure they were all right and were calling the police. The driver said she did not get a license number or a good look at the driver. Since there were engine fluids leaking on the ground and the one tire was flat, the truck's trail down the blacktop road was easy to follow. For three miles the kid drove the truck on three wheels and no radiator. Along the way he lost a wheel, a fender, and ground the suspension off one side of the truck. Towards the end you could not even see the truck between the steam from the engine and the smoke from him burning the rear tires trying to push the truck down the road with no front end. When the truck finally died, I drove by and took pictures of the license plate and the driver and his passenger with my cell phone. I then stopped a coupla hundred yards away and called 911. The operator that responded told me that they were backed up and it would be a while until an officer arrived and they asked me if I felt safe, to stay and keep an eye on the truck and it's occupants to see if they ran. It took 20 minutes for a officer to arrive. Soon there were 4 squads there. The detective that took my statement did not admonish me, but thanked me for what I did, saying more folks need to get involved. That far too many just turn their heads and look the other way.

You can look the other way if you want, but I don't. There are many legal ways to protect your property and the property of others around you. They may not always be the safest, and putting yourself needlessly in danger is not an intelligent thing to do. One needs to analyze the risks involved, the possible scenarios and be aware of what's going on around them. No different than walking down the street of a strange town. It does not make you a Mall Ninja or a wannabe cop. It makes you a citizen of your community.

 

[Warp]

I do not chase them down

Then you aren't doing what Zimmerman seems to have done.

A few years back, I witnessed a kid go thru a stop sign and T-Bone a Mini-Van. The kid in the truck took off and fled the scene. I checked the ladies in the Mini-Van and made sure they were all right and were calling the police. The driver said she did not get a license number or a good look at the driver. Since there were engine fluids leaking on the ground and the one tire was flat, the truck's trail down the blacktop road was easy to follow. For three miles the kid drove the truck on three wheels and no radiator. Along the way he lost a wheel, a fender, and ground the suspension off one side of the truck. Towards the end you could not even see the truck between the steam from the engine and the smoke from him burning the rear tires trying to push the truck down the road with no front end. When the truck finally died, I drove by and took pictures of the license plate and the driver and his passenger with my cell phone. I then stopped a coupla hundred yards away and called 911. The operator that responded told me that they were backed up and it would be a while until an officer arrived and they asked me if I felt safe, to stay and keep an eye on the truck and it's occupants to see if they ran. It took 20 minutes for a officer to arrive. Soon there were 4 squads there. The detective that took my statement did not admonish me, but thanked me for what I did, saying more folks need to get involved. That far too many just turn their heads and look the other way.

Witnessing a crime being committed, possibly with injuries being caused, =/= seeing a person you believe to be suspicious walking through.

You did not get out of your car and approach anybody. Again, as with several other posts in this thread, this is not an apt comparison to Zimmerman or any lessons we may learn from his case.

You can look the other way if you want, but I don't

You are grossly mis-understanding. You may want to go back and read my posts again.

I never even came close to saying I would, or anybody else should, "look the other way". I said it is a bad idea, and shouldn't be done, to get out on foot and follow or chase after a suspicious person who was walking through the neighborhood (or similar).

There are many legal ways to protect your property and the property of others around you. They may not always be the safest, and putting yourself needlessly in danger is not an intelligent thing to do. One needs to analyze the risks involved, the possible scenarios and be aware of what's going on around them. No different than walking down the street of a strange town. It does not make you a Mall Ninja or a wannabe cop. It makes you a citizen of your community.

I believe there is a difference between following (or chasing) a specific individual and simply walking down the street. Do you really believe those two things are the same??

 

[Potatohead]

+1 Buckaroo (post #26) !

 

[denton]

buck460XVR did what a responsible and careful citizen should have done. I think that if we look back over the suggestions that have been posted, his actions were in accord with them.

First, he rendered aid and called the police after the driver had fled.

Next, he gathered evidence. But he stayed in his car and parked far enough away that he could safely leave the scene if he needed to, but close enough that he could see which way the truck occupants went if they decided to flee.

He handed over all the information he had gathered to the police.

In short, he did all he could without taking unnecessary risks. He did not pursue the guilty party, and he did not confront him.

 

[RustyShackelford]

9x19mm ammunition....

Zimmerman used Sellor & Ballot 115gr JHPs(documented by author & gun-writer Massad Ayoob). He also purchased the Kel-Tec based on the advice of his neighbor & good friend, who is also a FAM(Federal Air Marshal).
Kel-Tec PF9s are manufactured near Sanford in Cocoa Florida.
GZ now uses a Glock, among other weapons.

 

[grubbylabs]

I think a few of you are saying the same thing. There is a difference in being a good witness and going to look for trouble. You should not go looking for trouble unless its your job. My CCW is for the protection of my family and my self. If others are immediately with me, they get included. Its not my job to confront the bad person, its my job to defend against the bad person. Unless they are in my house I am not going to go looking for them.

As far as to why you should stay in your car during a traffic stop, its for your safety. The odds of you dying if struck by a car while on the side of the road are extremely high. If you are seat belted in your car, they are extremely lower.
Stay in your car unless the officer instructs you other wise.

There is a simple lesson taught during most EMS training classes, its called scene safety. Look at whats going on, and try not to become a victim. If you are not trained to do something, don't do it.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

I guess I need to say this...carrying a gun does not make you a police officer! Following, confronting, and engaging "bad guys" is not your job! Throw that shiny "CCW" badge away.

I haven't heard anyone here say it does, but maybe that's not the point.
I believe in the Peelian Principles of Policing, one of which is "To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."

Being a police officer isn't some magical, mystical occupation to which you are 'called'. It's simply a job that some people are paid to do because it's easier to concentrate that responsibility in fewer individuals than spread it amongst the many, just like city road crews, garbage collectors and mail delivery.

 

[Warp]

I haven't heard anyone here say it does, but maybe that's not the point.
I believe in the Peelian Principles of Policing, one of which is "To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."

Being a police officer isn't some magical, mystical occupation to which you are 'called'. It's simply a job that some people are paid to do because it's easier to concentrate that responsibility in fewer individuals than spread it amongst the many, just like city road crews, garbage collectors and mail delivery.

That just doesn't fly.

There are a great deal of things LEOs do regularly that private citizens have absolutely no business engaging in.

(some of them under rare and extreme circumstances yes, but we aren't talking about circumstances like that, THR doesn't 'do' that)

 

[RustyShackelford]

Ayoob Files....

If you get a chance, I highly suggest any forum member interested, read or review Massad Ayoob's Ayoob Files article about the Zimmerman/Martin incident & court actions. It can put a few things into perspective.
I honestly don't find GZ fully credible but I do agree that the events that rainy night happened in stages(not one long continuous event as some media wags first stated ).
Many people outside central Florida are unaware of other factors & documented testimony related to the case too.
The ME office doctor: Shipping Bao(check spelling) was terrible. The good doctor was such a mess in open court he was later separated from the public service position.
Martin's girlfriend Rachel Genteel from south Florida was another train wreck for the State's Atty Angela Corry.
IMO, her statements & court appearance alone would clear Zimmerman or any other CCW license holder. Even under a formal conviction, her sworn testimony would be grounds for a mistrial or appeal.

 

[Warp]

Yes, I am well aware.

I watched the vast majority of the trial live online.

There was a lot of absolutely hilarious stuff. Which is sad because it shouldn't be that way.

The prosecution's case was just absolutely dreadful anyway. The way they posed questions and made implications without actually saying "this is what happened" was just so screwed up.

And the girl (wasn't Martin's girlfriend exactly but whatever)...I'm surprised she didn't lose it and completely blow up on the stand.

 

[Elkins45]

Being sued does not mean they win anything.

No, but it does mean you get to foot the financially crippling bill to defend yourself.

 

[Warp]

No, but it does mean you get to foot the financially crippling bill to defend yourself.

Depends on the state.

Well, whether or not they can even bring civil suit for a justified action depends on the state.

 

[Speedo66]

You might be sued. Might not. Just don't be surprised if you do. Being sued does not mean they win anything.

Deaf

But it does mean generally you will have an economic loss, not to mention an emotional loss. Win or lose, unless you have a prepaid legal plan, or your homeowner's insurance covers it, it's going to cost you a bundle for legal representation. The uncertainty that will come pending a determination will probably stress you out considerably.

There will be no winners, and nobody left unscathed.

 

[coondogger]

1. Don't look for trouble.
2. If trouble finds you, deal with it but don't overdo it.
3. No matter how fast things happen, there's always time to think before acting. Anyone who tells you differently is either irresponsible or 'vol kak'.
4. Remind first responders you were attacked. Then shut your mouth.
5. Stay calm, stay respectful, stay close-mouthed.

 

[Tirod]

1. Don't be there.
2. Dial 911 first and stay on.
3. Leave the immediate scene if at all possible

All of which are the recommended actions to take as suggested by a lot of PD's.

And they are contradictory.

It's exactly why so many of these lists aren't really helpful. You can't simply run a drill and expect your actions to even meet the situational requirements. It has to be analyzed for exactly what it is, and the reality is the individual only sees at most 40% of what is going on.

You Can't "know" what the real situation is. It's been pointed out over and over. A case example is often presented with an omniscient overview, much like the camera angle scene in a move. Au contraire, the individual only gets Point of View, like a video game. And it's highly restricted by it's specific take on what is revealed and what remains hidden.

Like, getting shot in the back by the wingman pushing a shopping cart.

You, me, we cannot exercise 360 degree vision, don't for a minute think a topic thread will even relate to an actual incident as it is witnessed and how people in that scene assess and react to what they see.

There is a known issue that witnesses never agree on exactly all the details. One may see something another cannot. When confronted with a situation, it's not what you immediately perceive as the problem, it's what can and will go wrong that you should worry about.

Watch your six.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Don't rely on cheap equipment. You shop at Walmart, they sell decent firearms. It's relative and the hidden message is to force an expensive upgrade.

I think this refers more to your holster and belt and such than your gun although clearly you wouldn't want to rely on a Jimenez

 

[Walkalong]

Since we can't seem to discuss the seven rules without going back down the Zimmerman road, this one is done unless someone can convince a mod it needs to continue.