Hi, what I carry, and Jerry Miculek

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It says I don't have permission to access the page... BUT I did some searching on the forum, and found the pics. Looks like a decent rig.
 
Sorry but I have to disagree with that part of your post. Competition is the "test bed" for techniques and tactics --------- a person can THINK they are the best but untill you try the same in some sort of "competition" it is all just theory. In the very early days of Mixed Martial Arts { MMA } and still today in "underground" mostly illegal MMA competitions , it was proved what would work and what was for "show" ---- Example , if you hit someone hard enough in the nose , the "nose bone" will be driven into the brain , killing them. ---- How many fighters/football players etc. etc. have had their nose completely crushed and how many have died from it ??

I think be it IPSC , IDPA , 3-gun Action,Skeet, MMA or even Paintball --- any "competitor" that has trained will beat a untrained non-competitor 99 times out of a 100.

I have fought inside and outside the ring --- I've also fought Eskrima full contact stick fighting , yes - we did wear head gear and padded gloves and we did Compete against each other. That is as close as you can get to a "target shooting back" in that form of fighting .

Anyway ------- I use a "Boxers Stance" or some say a Modified Weaver --- my left hand and left foot are forward , left leg is bent a bit , weight is 60% on left leg and 40% on right leg --- you "lean" into the gun to lessen recoil --- same stance if I shoot rifle , shotgun or handguns.

When I shoot either revolvers or semi-autos , both my elbows are SLIGHTLY bent to the ground ---- if both elbows are locked straight out , the handgun will Recoil MORE. If you doubt this ---- clasp both hands together and lock your arms/elbows straight out. Now have a six year old pull down on your fists ---- then , try the same thing with both elbows bent and tell us which way is more "solid" .

I agree with you on your points, but the problem is still that in the ring there are rules, and rules create bad habits for warriors where more is on the line than losing a match.

Many an MMA fighter has been stabbed because they tried to use what wins in the ring, in the real world where people have knives.

Shooting at a stationary target from a stationary position is about as realistic training for a gunfight as hitting a punching bag is training for a street fight.

I'm not trying to argue that competition is totally worthless, it is good for teaching some basic skills, what I'm trying to communicate is that competition can teach some bad habits that could be very very dangerous in real life. If one is concerned about being proficient with a carry gun they should be very careful about who they emulate, and pay more attention to dedicated warriors than dedicated competitors. Not to say that a warrior can't compete, just that they focus on different things.
 
Shooting at a stationary target from a stationary position is about as realistic training for a gunfight as hitting a punching bag is training for a street fight.
Fortunately some of the more relevant competition styles include very few stationary position shots and quite a few moving targets as well.

If you have the ability to TRAIN in a manner that is more realistic than an IDPA (or even USPSA) match, that's WONDERFUL. Most people, however, do not.

How many folks refuse to go shoot IDPA because they "don't want to learn bad habits from competition," and so instead shoot what...? Static range bullseyes? "Practical" courses of fire they set up themselves? (Which are better than IDPA stages HOW?)

If you say, "I don't shoot competition because they teach bad habits," fine.

Can you also say, "Instead, I have a training regimen that gives me just as much range time and skills development on complex shooting problems as competition would, but without the 'negatives?'" If not, then you're probably misleading yourself.

No one can practice getting shot at. No one can practice shooting real, live, attacking human beings. ANY training is a compromise -- an incomplete representation of reality. More shots on target is better than less, period. If you want to claim that competition is not relevant, then you have to substitute an equivalent intensity of training that IS so, or you're just fooling yourself.
 
Hi RD,
I think me and you are in agreement about most things as to training , tactics , and such. The OP , Dove , sounded like a relitively new shooter and I just wanted him to try to understand my feelings that there was some "merit" to getting involved in some form of competition.
Like you , I also think that ANY "gun game" can ingrain bad habits for the "street" --- most seasoned competitors will realise this and also train for a real life threat.
Play safe and have fun ---- GF123
 
Fortunately some of the more relevant competition styles include very few stationary position shots and quite a few moving targets as well.

If you have the ability to TRAIN in a manner that is more realistic than an IDPA (or even USPSA) match, that's WONDERFUL. Most people, however, do not.

How many folks refuse to go shoot IDPA because they "don't want to learn bad habits from competition," and so instead shoot what...? Static range bullseyes? "Practical" courses of fire they set up themselves? (Which are better than IDPA stages HOW?)

If you say, "I don't shoot competition because they teach bad habits," fine.

Can you also say, "Instead, I have a training regimen that gives me just as much range time and skills development on complex shooting problems as competition would, but without the 'negatives?'" If not, then you're probably misleading yourself.

No one can practice getting shot at. No one can practice shooting real, live, attacking human beings. ANY training is a compromise -- an incomplete representation of reality. More shots on target is better than less, period. If you want to claim that competition is not relevant, then you have to substitute an equivalent intensity of training that IS so, or you're just fooling yourself.

I'm not saying that competition is bad, I'm saying that many of the finer points of competition shouldn't be worried about in regards to defensive shooting. Unless I read wrong, the OP was confused about whose technique to follow: a defensive instructor and a competition champion.

Hi RD,
I think me and you are in agreement about most things as to training , tactics , and such.

Agreed!
 
Unless I read wrong, the OP was confused about whose technique to follow: a defensive instructor and a competition champion.

I'll sum my point up this way: When learning the legal aspects, the "social" aspects, situational awareness, creating space and time to react, and such things, follow the advice of a defensive shooting instructor that you trust.

But, when you're learning the "simple" stuff like grip, trigger control, reloading, stance, and the other details that J.M. is showing in that video, learn from the better SHOOTER.

So M. Ayoob uses a "modified Weaver" stance (sounds like) and Jerry M. uses an isosceles stance? That's not a skills choice that you should make dependent on whether you're "defensive shooting" or in competition. There is nothing in J.M.'s videos (applied correctly) that would be a liability on the street. It's all basic gun-handling.

Sure, he's not covering how to create space and sequencing your attackers while shooting on the move. He's not teaching what to say to the police when you call 911. He's not teaching how to shoot from retention. If you're looking for that kind of stuff, go to a defensive shooting instructor.

If you're trying to get your gun-handling, speed, & accuracy skills tuned up, you're just wasting a defensive shooting instructor's time. That's not his instructional specialty.

IMHO
 
So M. Ayoob uses a "modified Weaver" stance (sounds like) and Jerry M. uses an isosceles stance? That's not a skills choice that you should make dependent on whether you're "defensive shooting" or in competition. There is nothing in J.M.'s videos (applied correctly) that would be a liability on the street. It's all basic gun-handling.

Bingo.

That was why I brought up the highly successful local competitive shooter who has also been an FBI field agent (where he had to use his guns, a lot, against real people trying to really kill him with real bullets), an FBI shooting instructor, and is now in his "retirement" still the head of the local police academy firearms instruction program -- where they qual at contact distance, and out to 50 yards.

He will tell you that there's no fundamental difference in shooting techniques. Good shooting is good shooting.

There's a difference in the situation, and different situations can call for different techniques.

(BTW he has won different types of competitions, from PPC to NRA Bullseye, goes to Camp Perry every year to compete, etc. His -- admittedly broad -- skillset is as useful for one-handed accuracy as for action shooting.)
 
Going back to Jerry's videos for a moment I don't see anything that contradicts Ayoob's description on the hold other than for the big caliber hand cannons. That is the only spot where Jerry advises to hold a little low so the recoil causes a little more muzzle rise and eases the felt recoil in the hand. For all the other guns including his .45ACP revolver used in matches he tries his best to bury it in his grip. Mind you there's also some minor exceptions made with the little carry guns which, as I recall, he said he had to modify because of his hands. I took that to be the large size of his hands since there's no doubt at all that he has hands the size of Sasquatch's.... :D

On the topic of shooting in competitions. I'll just toss in that right or wrong, bad or good there is one thing that matches provide that you won't get from any amount of practice. And that is shooting while under stress and with at least a minor shot of adrenaline in the system. I've seen perfectly comfortable practice shooters turn into a quivering ball of Jello once the timer beeps in their ear and they know they are being scored and need to work fast. Habits and movements that seemed solid looking at them in practice turn to dust in the wind as soon as the adrenaline hits their arteries. If competition does nothing else it will at least help a person to work through this adrenaline fog that so many secumb to and learn to follow at least their practiced patterns under stress. It may not be perfect and the stress of competition may be very minor compared to the stress of a life or death situation but learning to perform with ANY amount of adrenaline pumping through the system is a real plus for a lot of people that suffer these apparent meltdowns at even a match level of stress.

Mind you some can face the timer with no real adrenaline spike. I tend to be one of those because I'm more worried about running and shooting through my matches in a safe manner first and for best time and score a distant second. I've personally gotten far bigger adrenaline charges at the prospect of being shot out in paintball games played in the woods where you soon begin seeing opponents behind every tree.
 
Incorrectly made with too much contact in one area (didn't analyze it). I loosened the retention screw 100% and it still occurred. Even when the gun would come out, there was a very narrow angle from which it had to be drawn. My main complaint was their unwillingness to fix it on their dime. I wasn't going to put more money into a holster.
 
Of course, there is force-on-force training. Incredibly valuable -- as an addition to live fire training.

Or are you contending that you get enough force-on-force practice that "action/practical" live fire is irrelevant for you?
 
..."Every individual will find a slightly different stance that works best....Try it for yourself. Get to know your body and your gun."...

well thought out advice given by Mr. A. Bear, above. i have to take exception to those who know the ONLY correct way, taught by the ONLY correct individual. look at the widely varied methods used by some of the icons of the sport/trade. they can be as different as their fingerprints. what works for you will be the deciding factor. try every different style you can, and make your own conclusions. even in the methods you settle upon, you will find that target use and SHTF use will be dramaticly different.

i would love to be a present for a debate (were it still possible), of "correct" handgun shooting methods between jeff cooper, skeeter skelton, charles askins, elmer kieth, ed mcgivern, jerry miculek, etc...

i would do so with a predetermined level of hostility that would send me seeking cover when it was reached. and i SURE AS HELL would not challenge any of them to prove they were correct.

gunnie
 
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Well, I shot a 50-round after work match last night. I switched from Weaver, which I used last time, to Isosceles this time.

My score went up one point. It's isosceles for me!:D
 
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