Hiding Firearms

[ManBearPig]

So many times in many forums people will say things like "I'll bury my guns to avoid confiscation if a ban were to happen." I'd like to find out what legal ramifications could happen on that. But since a complete ban, house to house thing won't happen, let's come up with a scenerio that has happened:

Here are a couple:

In the state of California they had people register their "assault weapons", then some time after that the state's government decided to go around collecting some of those guns.

If a person has a restraining order against them, for that period of time, they can't legally have a gun. If they live in a registration state, the state knows whether or not they have a gun.

In Canada, which has registration, they just recently decided to ban a .22 rifle that is an AK variant. In so doing, they have demanded that anyone that has one must turn it in with no compensation.

In all three of those cases, what would happen to the person if they took those guns, which the state knows they have, and hid them off property and/or made up a lie such as "I lost them in a boating accident" or "just a day ago they were stolen from my home during the night, while I slept, because I forgot to close and lock my front door".

Would they simply be jailed until they gave up the location of their guns? Sort of like how the Bush Administration had the journalist jailed indefinetely for not giving up their sources? Essentially giving yourself a life sentence if you decide to never tell them where your guns are?

 

[cbrgator]

The law banning possession of the guns would specifically state the penalty for non-compliance. I'd almost guarantee it would be a felony, but what degree and other details are simply impossible to guess.

You should comply with the law.

 

[ihctractor]

The same thing would happen to them that happens now if you have an illegal machine gun or are illegally possessing a gun. Jail, fines, loss of property and rights etc.

If you registered a gun that later became illegal to own or you lost your right to own a gun then you have no recourse but to turn it in. If they know you have it and come to your door to collect it, you better have something to give them!

Now if your talking about an all out hostile Government takeover (i.e.-Nazi Germany) of the peaceful law abiding citizens then I think it would be high time to organize your neighborhood and use those weapons, not be burying them in the backyard, but that's a whole different scenario all together

 

[ManBearPig]

If you registered a gun that later became illegal to own or you lost your right to own a gun then you have no recourse but to turn it in. If they know you have it and come to your door to collect it, you better have something to give them!

Well that's what the OP was about though, from all the years of seeing "I'll hide them" posts on forums. If the person says it was stolen, such as "I left my doors unlocked and opened all night. When I got up in the morning, my guns were gone". So you wouldn't have anything to turn in when they come to collect it, so they would have to prove you were lying. From the story itself "my doors were unlocked and open all night", so the story makes it harder to disprove since it negates the need for forced entry.

Wouldn't they have to prove the person was lying before sending them to jail? In some rare cases, the person might actually not have something to turn in for actual reasons that aren't nefarious.

 

[Telekinesis]

In all three of those cases, what would happen to the person if they took those guns, which the state knows they have, and hid them off property and/or made up a lie such as "I lost them in a boating accident" or "just a day ago they were stolen from my home during the night, while I slept, because I forgot to close and lock my front door".

The police would politely call them on their lie, and then arrest them for having the gun AND hindering the investigation. And I'm sure there would be forms to fill out explaining the loss of a firearm if it was registered in the first place (witnesses to the accident etc.) and maybe a few questions such as "why would you take 40 guns out on a boat at one time?" If they know you have the guns (registration) and they know that you didn't turn any in to be in compliance with the ban, it would be quite easy for them to get a warrant to search your house.

The real battle is making sure they don't know you have the gun in the first place, which means not registering it (and to a certain extent, not having your name tied to that weapon on the transfer paperwork, as I'm sure at the beginning of national registration, they will at least look at those names - FFLs are open to occasional audit, but if we're talking about registration it would be easy for a bill to say "FFLs will be required to turn over 4473s"). So the plan would be to cache the weapons before the registration took place, and then they're already there for the future gun ban and they're not tied to anything.

If you want to know HOW to cache guns, there are plenty of sources online and in military manuals that are quite easy to get. I actually looked into what it would take to do something like that and decided it wouldn't be worth my trouble.

Speculating on what the future penalty will be for a law that isn't even written yet is pointless.

Now if your talking about an all out hostile Government takeover (i.e.-Nazi Germany) of the peaceful law abiding citizens then I think it would be high time to organize your neighborhood and use those weapons, not be burying them in the backyard, but that's a whole different scenario all togethe

That line is not easily drawn. Remember, Hitler was democratically voted into power. They didn't go from a democratic government to genocide overnight.

Edit:

Wouldn't they have to prove the person was lying before sending them to jail? In some rare cases, the person might actually not have something to turn in for actual reasons that aren't nefarious.

If we assume that registration precedes confiscation (which is usually what happens) they will know that you had x gun and ask why it is not there. A simple "it was stolen last night because I left it on the table with all my doors unlocked and open" will be seen similarly to "those drugs in my car are the other passenger's, not mine!" Cops are usually pretty good judges of who is lying to them and who isn't. If they think you're lying, it'll be pretty easy to get a search warrant considering there is no record of the guns being disposed of or stolen. Then the freshly dug dirt will be pretty evident in your back yard...

 

[ManBearPig]

If we assume that registration precedes confiscation (which is usually what happens) they will know that you had x gun and ask why it is not there. A simple "it was stolen last night because I left it on the table with all my doors unlocked and open" will be seen similarly to "those drugs in my car are the other passenger's, not mine!" Cops are usually pretty good judges of who is lying to them and who isn't. If they think you're lying, it'll be pretty easy to get a search warrant considering there is no record of the guns being disposed of or stolen. Then the freshly dug dirt will be pretty evident in your back yard...

I think most people would know how stupid that explaination would sound. So let's say the person was smart enough to hid/bury them off their property. That would mean the search warrent and property inspection would turn up nothing.

 

[X-Rap]

Registration in Canada has largely been ignored from what I read and CA. is a state with gun friendly borders so I suspect there was a mass exodis when their registration sceam hit.
The important thing to look at here is resisting registration in the first place and if that doesn't work then we all must decide where the trip wire/line in the sand is.
My personal view is, I don't think I will be standing in line for registartion of my guns and I will only be burying those that I don't need at the time. The US is the last place on earth that allows the freedoms we enjoy, we can't just cross the border to a better place.
If they come to your door post registration (God Forbid) tell them you saw the writing on the wall and sold all of them but a token few pieces of junk and send them on their way.

 

[ManBearPig]

My personal view is, I don't think I will be standing in line for registartion of my guns and I will only be burying those that I don't need at the time. The US is the last place on earth that allows the freedoms we enjoy, we can't just cross the border to a better place.
If they come to your door post registration (God Forbid) tell them you saw the writing on the wall and sold all of them but a token few pieces of junk and send them on their way.

Keep in mind this thread isn't about a person's personal feelings on what they would do in the situations listed in the OP; I don't want this thread to go there. This thread is just about legal ramifications for hiding guns in those situations and about whether the government first needs to prove you are lying even if the lie is outrageous. Such as my last post about how they would get a search warrant, but what happens if they turn up nothing because the person buried their guns off their property.

 

[Telekinesis]

Keep in mind this thread isn't about a person's personal feelings on what they would do in the situations listed in the OP; I don't want this thread to go there. This thread is just about legal ramifications for hiding guns in those situations

I think you'll have a hard time keeping people from giving their personal opinions on what they would likely do given the circumstances in the OP. The crux of the situation is that we can't definitively say what the legal punishment will be for a statute that hasn't been written yet. There are moral answers to the questions and the aforementioned "if I was trying to circumvent the law, this is what I would do" answers, but nothing definitive.

To try and prove that you were illegally in possession of an illegal weapon, the investigation would be very much like one would be today in regards to an illegal suppressor or machine gun. If the search turns up nothing, they wouldn't just say "oh well, I guess he was telling the truth", they would continue surveillance and possibly send some informants in to try to get you to say that you had the guns hidden. It would be like any other investigation, just with the subject being about guns instead of murder.

If you're really unlucky, you might end up with ATF running the investigation... we don't need to go through their standards of investigation again, I think Fast and Furious is enough of an example

 

[BADUNAME37]

Anyone who thinks they can hide anything is fooling themselves and does not realize just what can be seen from planes, orbiting vehicles, satellites, etc.

I believe the technology is in place, and has been for some time, to see inside buildings, see underground caverns, underground openings, etc. I believe portions of the earth can be monitored just like an MRI takes extremely detailed images deep inside our body!

Anyone who thinks they can get away with something is fooling themselves. If it is anything that can get them into trouble, it eventually will.

 

[guyfromohio]

Cold.... Dead.......Hands.

 

[Strykervet]

The law banning possession of the guns would specifically state the penalty for non-compliance. I'd almost guarantee it would be a felony, but what degree and other details are simply impossible to guess.

You should comply with the law.

Well, some laws aren't worth the paper they were written on and aren't worth complying with --or enforcing for that matter. This would be one of them. I don't bother burying them, I don't want to live in that America. IF there is a transistion to a non-Bill of Rights America, you won't see me on the other side. I draw the line there and am not afraid to stand here and say it. To me, life comes second to freedom.

Why bury them? If you aren't ready to use them DURING the showdown, what are you gonna use them for later? If you didn't fight for what is right when the fight was going on, what are you gonna fight for now? Get for real. You bury them because you live in a dream world. You could say that burying your arms is a metaphor for burying your head in the sand when it counts most. History and museums are FULL of junk people buried to escape bad times. There is a reason they never came back for it --they died.

Wake up. The only reason ANYBODY would come to your door to take your arms is because they want an easy enemy. You ALWAYS ask your enemy to turn in arms before the onslaught, it just makes operations easier. Ask the Jews that survived Hitler about the decrees. "Turn in you arms and show up at this corner at such and such time under penalty of death". Yeah, you comply with that law.

And even if that isn't the case in this country, even if the intent were wholly right, I just don't trust this governement enough to turn over my 1/300,000,000 stake in this mess. I suppose I never will --if you read what all the dead white men wrote, you wouldn't either. The foundation of this governement is distrust of governement!

The 2A safeguards the rest of the democracy, if you trade that you may as well trade democracy. It only comes behind free speech for a reason --you can't have a democracy without free speech, and you can't guarantee free speech without threat of force via the democracy (you and me) to back it up. 1A and 2A are parteners in crime, they cannot be divorced.

Basically, I vote when I should vote and I shoot when I should shoot; I prefer voting. The only time my arms (and rifle!) will be buried is with me.

 

[Earlsbud]

If the gun is missing and can't be found by the prosecutor, what would the charge be? In Ca. only handguns can be traced to registered owners. Although there is long gun registration, nothing appears on the form except the words long gun. There is no mention of manufacturer, caliber/gauge, or serial number, only long gun. It could be a 22, a 12 Ga., or a 50 Barret. It's just a tax. Bottom line, cbrgator is right. You should comply with the law. Times would have to be VERY desperate for me to risk a jail cell to keep a tool hidden. I don't see the left gaining any traction after Fast and Furious. They truly shot themselves in the foot. (Pun intended.) This coming November the 2A will either be a little safer or in more danger than ever before.
Sic semper tyrannis!

 

[phil dirt]

If Obama gets re-elected, the subject of this discussion may well become reality. All he needs is one more appointment to the Supreme Court. All of us need to vote in November 2012.

 

[AlexanderA]

The real battle is making sure they don't know you have the gun in the first place, which means not registering it

I remember that this sort of discussion took place before and during the machine gun amnesty under the Gun Control Act of 1968, and there were people that didn't register theirs for that very reason. Now, the unregistered ones are contraband carrying a large fine and prison term, while the registered ones are worth tens of thousands of dollars. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be paranoid. That said, the best defense is staying on top of things politically and legislatively to make sure that the dire consequences never happen.

 

[Strykervet]

Keep in mind this thread isn't about a person's personal feelings on what they would do in the situations listed in the OP; I don't want this thread to go there. This thread is just about legal ramifications for hiding guns in those situations and about whether the government first needs to prove you are lying even if the lie is outrageous. Such as my last post about how they would get a search warrant, but what happens if they turn up nothing because the person buried their guns off their property.

Well, in that case the police want to enforce a very unpopular "new law" that also goes in direct conflict with the Bill of Rights --which means now our democracy has been compromised. So I would imagine that you would keep your arms under threat of death or life in prison, isn't that we roll? You commit a crime against the state, you get the ultimate punishments?

Well, in that case I suppose we'd devolve into civil war or revolution first. I guess you don't get it: you asked "what would be the penalties..." and what some on here are trying to tell you is there will be NO penalties --they will only be upholding and defending the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. In this case, you could say the lawmakers divorced themselves from the democracy and their freedom and lives are in peril for committing treason against the democracy of our country. Sure, they'll pass laws written on paper, but they'll need the force of the people to back them up and a handful of very loyal to the master cops just won't be enough.

I guess I'm saying is you are taking a "it does what its told" approach to the governement, and I'm taking a "democracy or else" approach --those laws and penalties simply wouldn't apply to me. Not because I say they don't, but simply because they violate the 2A and I took an oathe to do otherwise and I stand by it.

To me, handing in my arms is like urinating on the Bill of Rights and I just don't do that. That document belongs to each of us, and when you shut up for fear of governement reprisal or turn in your arms under royal decree, you are in effect handing over your share of the democracy, a little bit of you and of America just died.

You know, I guess if we didn't have this big 'ole pain in the neck democracy thing hanging over us, it would make it easy for us to all just turn them in and then just "do what its told".

 

[ManBearPig]

Ok, this has already gotten into more of the confiscation scenerio. Let's move this away from government confiscation. Let's focus on the one that happens all the time in America, and that I"m not aware of anyone being put to death for or life in prison for, which is a restraining order.

Let's say a guy us going through a messy divorce. He realizes that angry women will sometimes file restraining orders saying they "feel threatened" even though no threat has ever been made. He also realizes that if he gets an order against him, he will lose his guns. He knows how damn hard it is to get guns back from the police.

So what does he do? He, before a restraining order gets filed, takes all the guns out of his house and hides them. Now lets say not long after that his angry wife files one of those false restraining orders and gets it and tell the police her husband has a gun collection. So the police come and say "turn in your guns". He says "What guns? By all means, please come in and search for yourself".

What can they do to him?

 

[ihctractor]

Now your talking about a little different scenario. I had a similar situation happen to a freind. My friends wife was arrested for embezzlement from her work place and did some time. When she got out she was on probation and not allowed to have guns. Before her release her husband took all of his guns to a relatives house for safe keeping. When the wife got home the probation officer checked for guns... none found. He asked if they owned any, husband replies yes, but they are staying off site with family. Probation officer was o.k. with that since the husband was allowed to have firearms so no harm no foul.

 

[Mike1234567]

ManBearPig... In a situation like that I'd break a window from the outside and unlock it. When officers arrive I'd kindly comply leading them to the room where all my forearms are located. As I open the door I'd gasp the words, "Oh Lord, my house was broken into. When did THIS happen?!?"

 

[X-Rap]

In the case of the restraining order you might have 100's of different laws depending on where you live regarding disposal/dispersal of firearms.
Here where I live I think I could take all my guns to a friend or family members house and that would be it since there is no requirements for FTF gifting/sale/storage between private individuals. Being of a temporary nature and being that, speaking for myself, a restraining order would not be justified and I would fight to have it removed in any way from my record, I would honor the terms for however long it lasted.
I would say you need to check the laws in your jurisdiction to be sure.

 

[Mr. T]

I've read all the posts and I am aware of the "What If" scenarios outlined, but what about the Constitution? How can another law come along being put in place by the government that takes away one of our most God given rights? Wouldn't that law be in itself "illegal"; and if that law is in itself illegal why would we as citizens be obliged to follow it? I personally think that it's our duty as citizens to oppose such laws with everything that we have. If "illegal" laws are forced upon us how could we be criminals if we refused to go along with them?

 

[hermannr]

My BIL had an old Iver Johnson (C&R here, but not Pre 1898).32 cal pistol, which became a "banned" weapon in Canada. (Barrel too short, and .32 cal.)

There were a couple choices he had...as he owned it prior to the ban he could keep it until he died. He could export it (that is give it to me here in the US), he could give it to someone else that already collected Ivar Johnsons, or he could GIVE it to the RCMP for distruction.

What he could not do is sell it, or leave it to one of his sons.

As to the long gun registration...you are correct, a lot of people did not register their long guns. However, pistol registration has been in place for so many years, all the legally held handguns are registered. This last law (1996?) that banned any handgun less than 4" and any handgun .25 cal or .32 cal. along with a few others, just shows that Canada, can, and will, just consfiscate registered firearms at will and whim. No compensation.

One big thing here in the US. If they were to confisicate a firearm, they would, by law, have to compensate you for it, it may take a court fight, but that is the law per the 5th ammendment of the US constitution.....that is probably the biggest thing keeping the real gun grabbing down.

 

[leadchucker]

Did this sort of scenario not occur in the UK? Were gun owners there compensated?

 

[Mr. T]

hermannr- What about the 2nd amendment? Doesn't that even come into thought? The 2nd amendment and the NRA a couple of main reasons for the government not confiscating weapons. If they can throw out the 2nd amendment couldn't they just as easily throw out the 5th? In fact the 2nd amendment is the key that holds all of our other rights in place. That is the linch pin that keeps us from becoming like any of the other countries on the planet.

 

[X-Rap]

Compensation? What is fair compensation for contraban? I sure hope we are not relying on that as the primary obstacle of gun confiscation.
Someone pointed out that the gov has vast surveillance resources available and that is certainly true but given the land mass to gun ratio in the US I think they would have their hands full sorting out where all the weapons were.
We have much greater reason to fear laws that simply say you can't have them and when on surfaces you will promptly be made a huge example of.
We have porous borders and have spent a dozen yrs fighting against rebel insurgents so all that technology doesn't fully equate to success for them but I have always contended that our gov. will treat its own citizens much rougher if that time should ever come.