High Fence and Preserve Hunting

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If you are raiseing exotics to help a country restock and you must control the herd size and you can't free range thats one thing but to control deer or to have some well to do just pay big money to get a trophy , no that just ain't right. Bring in children or handcaped and have a company underight some of the cost for you then hunt. That is doing good. Your in florida then you should know the ,,,can't get the name right swannee river hunting preserve. some canned hunt club on the corner of a road that runs east to west from perry and down along the river to oldtown. THAT is a BS deal there. Youger guys catch big hogs and they are caged to be turned loss for some (hunter) to shoot or the exotics that walk right by you cause they don't know to run all on what a section of land. To many high fence hunting grounds around the country. Maybe there should be new records,,free range and high fence geniticaly alterd herds.
 
I don't have a problem with it...as long as it's legal.

I think it that there are a lot of factors to be taken into consideration to determine if the scenario was a 'real hunt.' It's basically situational ethics.

For example, let's convert it to fishing.

If you're in Red Lobster, and picking out a live lobster from the aquarium with pair of tongs...are you fishing?

If you're in the phosphate pits, fishing for 10 lbs bass in a trophy pit are you really fishing?

In the Red Lobster example, I think most people would agree that you weren't really fishing. The lobster has some rubber bands around its claws and can't really get away.

But, what if the Red Lobster aquarium fisherman had some severe handicap that prevented him/her from going outdoors? Then I'd high five that fisherman on his 'biggest lobster catch ever' and never feel guilty about taking some pictures for his mom's refrigerator.

Now cut back to the stocked phosphate pit. If the team is hauling in a trophy bass on every cast, regardless of the size of the pit, most people would just consider that catching...not really fishing. But, if (like what normally really happens in phophate pits) the dynamics of the pit permit that bass to act normally in the environment that they are in, then most people would consider that fishing. The main thing is that the bass, that are behaving naturally, are larger than the average ones caught from surrounding pits because that have been managed to their present size by specific placement, feeding, elimination of other predators etc.

So, in my humble opinion, I don't really care what others think. It's up to the individual hunter.

I do think that if we has hunters and gun enthuisiasts bad mouth a fellow sportsman to drive them out of business, then we're just hurting all of our outdoor sports in the long run.
 
I don't have a problem with it either. If you have a problem with it, then its not for you an you don't have to. Years ago, my best friend an I went to Ohio to hunt boars with archery, it was fun, an not as easy as you would think.....its like the debate with baiting, some states it is perfectly legal, some states it is unlawful..some hunters are for it, an some hunters say its unithical an wrong....I say...whatever trips your trigger....
Fenced preserve, wild country, tied up cow, fenced chickens, grocery store...its all good eating!!!!
 
I wouldn't do it for exotics, like shooting zoo animals. However, I've had a good hunt for hogs on a high fence 700 acres south of San Antonio once. It was fun. I hunted all day and got 3. You were limited to 3 in two days under 100 lbs. They were overrun with hogs. Heck, I trap and kill hogs just for the meat. This was sorta like climbing in a big trap full of 'em with brush they could hide in. LOL
 
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I hunt on a high fence ranch. At 3000+ acres, I consider it fair chase hunting and have no quarrel with the landowner trying to manage his land.
 
Personally I wish it were Illegal. I was personally involved with a landowner of a small ranch of 200 acres that was forced to sell because the surrounding large ranches decided to high fence. I understand that it can benefit the wildlife inside the fence, but it can also devastate the wildlife outside the fence by limiting their range and food sources. This was true in the case I was involved with. I applaud ranchers who low fence "AND" actively manage their wildlife resources. The vast majority of ranchers who high fence do it for the money that can be made off their wildlife resources and hide behind the guise of; "it's good for the animals"
 
I don't have a problem with high fences. As others have pointed out, there is precious little public hunting land in Texas, and a great many poachers.

If I owned a large piece of land and could afford the high fence, I'd probably put one up, if for no other reason than to keep poachers off my property.

In Texas, big-game hunting is more of a business than a sport, but to me that's just a response to supply and demand.
 
I have less issues with the height of the fence than I do with the definition of "fair chase". I see no difference in sitting over a bait pile on a small parcel of private land or even a large tract of public land as opposed to a high fence preserve. It's still a shoot, not a hunt. IMHO, If an animal has an fair opportunity to escape, is not a domesticated animal with no fear of humans and has not been trained by auto feeders/daily baiting to come to a particular spot, it's a hunt.

In Wisconsin, the majority of of our pheasant hunting is stocked birds. The DNR spends hundreds of thousands of dollars every year in this effort. As ridiculous as it is, there are some that hunt state released birds on public land that scorn those that hunt pheasants released privately on shooting preserves. Funny thing is, the birds come from the same game farm and most times the cover/terrain on the preserves is harder to hunt than that on public land......thus the birds have a better chance of getting away and evading the guns. Sadly, being pen raised, they both have an equally hard time evading the 'yotes and feral cats.
 
The only problem I have with anything being discussed here is the tendancy of people to look past property rights. What somebody does with their own land is their own business. If anyone - in any way - uses animals for personal gain (do you eat animals? Do you hunt animals? Do you wear animals? Were animals denied habitat so your house could be built?), then that person has forfeited their right to judge. If a true vegan (who lives in a tree that was hollowed out by lighting and wears nothing but a fig leaf and has never willingly been transported in a car) wants to complain about some form of hunting, I guess they have the right. The rest of us would just be picking nits.
 
Hunt Preserves in Maine live on...........

The bill to kill our hunt preserve, L.D. 560 was killed in committee. A unanimous vote from the 13 member committee of "ought not to pass L.D. 560" rang out!......The bill to kill our hunt preserves was dead!




Game parks still open

BY SUSAN M. COVER
Staff Writer

03/26/2009

AUGUSTA -- The Legislature's Agriculture, Conservation and Forestry Committee voted 12-0 Wednesday against a bill that would have required large-game shooting areas to close within two years.

The bill, LD 560, is sponsored by Rep. Alan Casavant, D-Biddeford.

Committee member Rep. Benjamin Pratt, D-Eddington, was not present for the vote, but said afterward he was likely to vote with the rest of the committee to defeat the bill.

Earlier this month, shooting-area owners and animal-rights activists presented sharply divided views of what happens on these types of ranches.

Owners said they provide a safe hunting experience for people who want to hunt deer, bison and boar. Casavant described them as "barbaric and designed to satisfy the blood lust of a handful of out-of-staters."

In the end, committee members said the industry has a perception problem that should be addressed through an educational campaign.

"This issue has a lot to do with public perception," said Rep. Peter Kent, D-Woolwich. "They want to know what controls there are in place that make this hunting and not just sitting on a fence shooting cows."

In 2000, Maine passed a law to allow existing game preserves to continue to operate but that does not allow for new ones to open. www.hindsite-deer.com

House Chairwoman Rep. Wendy Pieh, D-Bremen, said she visited one of the parks and found it to be well run. She said whether it's fair-chase hunting or farming, or whether it offends the morals of some, is not for the Legislature to decide.

"I think those are issues the market can handle," she said, noting that many of these businesses have made major investments.

Maine has nine licensed facilities, two of which are inactive, according to the Department of Agriculture, which regulates the preserves.

Casavant said many of his constituents wanted the preserves to be closed, and the only calls he got in favor of them were from northern Maine or out of state.

"It triggered some debate, which was good," he said. "As long as it educated, that's the bottom line for a lot of bills."

Susan Cover -- 620-7015
 
All I know is what I've seen in Texas, and what I've read about high-fence operations here.

Okay: First off, most high fences are to keep deer out, not in. The rancher culls the herd down below the carrying capacity of the food supply. He gets rid of excess does, and the mature spike bucks and "scraggle-horn" bucks. That's highly intelligent treatment for any pasture, any critter. For deer, he does improvements such as restoring or fertilizing native herbs and forbs. That's not cheap. He augments water supplies, 'cause much of this country is dry and is still in a conditon of declining average rainfall--as it has been for over 800 years, according to the tree-ring people.

So he doesn't want the neighbors' deer coming in and messing up The Plan.

Even without messing with the genetics, this ranch is gonna have superior deer after a few years. That lets him justify outrageous prices to try and get paid back for the investment.

Where one might have wiggle room for the morality of all this is for operations where pen-raised bucks and does are selected for superior genetics for antlers and body size. The best of the best are sold for stocking of game ranches. Me, I don't really approve of that, although I'd not call for outlawing it.

The other issue is "fair chase". Okay, fine. A whitetail, given ample food and water sources, is happy to hang out in an area of roughly a square mile. That's 640 acres to the square-mile section. A lot of these high-fence pastures are several square miles, a few thousand acres. That's about as fair as somebody could want. I've walking-hunted a thousand acres of mesquite brush country in a day, and it danged near beat me to death--and I'm not about to say I covered it anywhere near as thoroughly as I should have.

To me, a "high fenced hunting ranch" is not some little old ten-acre corral. It's generally a real deal, with the particular style of hunt tailored to the customer. The customer has limits as to hunting skill and general knowledge--and, often, little time.

Not every city boy can do the sneaky snake deal like some of us, or strike out across country and kill running bucks at 300 yards. (Okay, so 175 was the best I ever did. I've seen folks do better. :) )
 
Fellows,

I'll tell you what, great comments here from everyone. We had a bit of a dust-up over at The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles. There are two sides to the coin and unfortunately, in my opinion, the "Fair Chase" adherents did not make the most convincing argument. I will say that many of the points made by Fair Chase adherents are also held by folks that will gladly hunt behind High Fences. So it was really a bit of a difficult situation for everyone.

What I think is the crux of the problem is that there is very little accessible public lands on either coast, or near the large urban centers. Add to that the time constraints of the modern American family, and it is obvious to me that the market has responded by making the opportunity available... for a price.

Anyway, thank you all for participating in the conversations!

Regards,
Albert
Game Preserves and High Fence Hunting
The Ethical Question
The Discussion Continues
 
I do not like high fenced hunting...if you want to call it hunting...I call it a turkey shoot.

Beyond that though is that deer and other game animals WERE NEVER supposed to be the property of the land owner but of the state/people of the state. Therefore when the land owners started high fencing their land laws were changed to address this...YUK!

I still believe hunting should be FAIR CHASE and that ALL should adhere to this...sadly even if it was the law it would be broken so prevelently that it would seem that there was not law in the first place.

If only integrity still existed in these good of states of the US of A. Unfortunately it is all about me! And not about much else....
 
I'm certain that those conscientious hunters who have negative thoughts about preserves would change if they hunted on a LARGE ranch. I agree that a small place has little challenge.

I suggest hunting with Thompson Temple in Texas. He knows just about everything there is to know about exotic animals and where the challenging hunts can be arranged. He is honest, ethical, and a fine man.

This is an axis deer. Originated in Ceylon and India but they've been thriving in Texas, Florida, and other hunting ranches for many years. This buck weighs in about the same as large 275 -300 lb muley but antlers are much taller and wider. They're not easy to hunt in un-baited terrain. Plan to spend $2500. for a 4 day hunt.

axislivefullsize.jpg

Exotic hunting should be challenging, fun, and affordable. Shop around and ask about size of the ranch. Plan to find losers and winners, too!

TR
 
To me a lot of the question is how much land is fenced. There's a big difference when you are hunting 2,000 acres.
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Yep, there are ranches where you hunt free range even though they're high fenced. Man, what it must cost to build and then maintain that fence, miles and miles and miles of it! I've hunted hogs on a 700 acre high fence exotic operation. That place for exotics would be like shooting zoo animals and they got BIG bucks for 'em. I was just shooting meat hogs, but I won't waste a penny to shoot (as opposed to hunt) exotics there. I mean, all you need is a feeder to set off and they'll trample you coming to dinner. Or, if you have a jeep you can drive that looks like the ranch manager's jeep, think pied piper.

JMHO, of course.
 
peredavid.jpg

This is a Pere David deer. Originally from China, this amazing deer is extinct within its native range. But due to European and American hunting preserves, this animal is thriving.

My daughter and I visited a breeding ranch in Nebraska to view these rare animals. The deer are trucked to hunting ranches in Texas and other places as well. In contrast, Texas has several large ranches where generations of Pere David deer have been bred and born in a 100% wild environment.

What's the point? Hunters who pay for "high fence" preserve hunts provide cash incentive for game ranches to make capital investments in exotic deer. Animals that are kept in zoos may keep the sub-species from becoming entirely extinct but they lose their wildness. For many of us, the wildness is what makes animals so interesting. Supporting "high fence" hunting preserves is not for everyone but it has added value to wildlife.

TR
 
I've never had the money to do a hunt on a LARGE ranch like the King or the Kennedy south of us. Someday, I will, and I want to take a blue bull, Nilgai. Neither of those ranches are high fenced, don't think, haven't actually been on 'em, but they're HUGE. They're like a little country unto themselves. Nilgai free range there.

As to feeder watching, those who think a feeder is a deer magnet have never used one. If the land is grossly overpopulated, perhaps, but there have been years like last year when I have been zonked. This year should be good, dry, no acorns, deer and hogs are fighting over food.
 
I went over to the Rasch blogsite. Same thing in that thread as in the ones here and at TFL: People don't realize that the high fences are to keep other deer OUT.

After all, with water points and improved range, why would a deer leave if he didn't have to? Whether predator or prey, animals go where the food is. As long as there's food, they hang around.

Grump. City people. Grump. :(

The King Ranch is right around 800,000 acres. The highway fences are livestock fences, not game control fences. SFAIK, the nilghai are mostly on the eastern part; I've seen them from the Laguna Madre.
 
If a guy wants to hunt high fence then more power to him. However, there is something going on at some of those places that I do not like at all. Some of these "ranches" have a few acres set aside for captive deer breeding: They release the prize deer into the larger fenced enclosure for special clients. Some of their clients just shoot the animals in the breeding pens.

A guy can go to one of these""game ranches", pay big bucks place and kill a 190 class buck deer that was captive bred. He can then claim that he killed it fair chase and enter the animal in Boone and Crockett.

Today I will hog hunt free of charge on 14,000 acres. I may not get a hog but if I do it will be a free ranging hog.
 
the nilghai are mostly on the eastern part; I've seen them from the Laguna Madre.
Click to expand...

Me, too, and that's why I wanna do that some day. I've run down there with groups to Padre, the land cut, for the duck hunting. You can also hunt Padre for deer, but they all run to the dunes, as I understand it, when season gets going, not many up in the legal areas in daylight. Don't even think of going into the national sea shore into the dunes. It is fun just walkin' around down there and exploring, though. I will be able to do some fun things like hunt Nilgai in 6 years, maybe, if there's still anything in the social security system. :rolleyes: Also, I wonder about my electric bill with this cap and trade stuff, could cut into my funds a bit. But, I live real well on my retirement and other income. When the SSI comes along, if I am still able to move, I'm going to do some of this stuff I wanna do before I become unable to move. LOL It'll probably run 3K to hunt down there, not sure, really haven't looked in to it. I'm sure it's a lot more for a trophy whitetail. I really have little interest in trophy whitetail. I wanna shoot something weird and hopefully a little more affordable. LOL! I'll probably never get to do an elk hunt, but nilgai would do, I guess.
 
IMHO, there is a difference between hunting and shooting. Huge food plots, entrapment's, etc to me is just shooting. If a place has a 100% success rate, then usually it's not hunting.
 
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