High New Holster concern

[High Noon Holsters]

Here is my 2 cents, I have about 15 leather holsters form 5 different makers that have a sewn in sight track, none of them are that far off or that SLOPPY.
I would never consider buying a holster from High Noon if that is what they pass off for good workmanship. I have a 12 year old IWB made for my G26 by DeSantis holster called the Inner Piece. The sight is centered in the track, The workmanship is much neater, and I have carried the holster hundreds of times over the last 12 years and the sight track is still centered.

Here it is 79.99 list price, and less than that from Natchez

http://www.desantisholster.com/stor...AIST-BAND-HOLSTERS/Inner-Piece/Glock/26-27-33

JMHO YMMV.

We appreciate you posting and trying to help, this is a classic example of comparing apples to oranges, another misunderstanding of holsters. Not your fault, its hard to "look under the hood" when it comes to holsters.

There is no stitched in site track in that holster, there is room made in the molding process for the front site. But in no way is there a stitched in rubber track in that holster, according to the picture/link you posted. After that holster is molded, if the leather shifts to one side, it is then moved by hand to make it look even. You can't do that with our track.

Alex

 

[YourAlterEgo]

whenever I see somebody join a forum to complain about a product, I get a little suspicious

That is very understandable, but I didn't complain in my original post. I had already received a response email from HNH stating they didn't consider it a problem. I asked the group if they would be okay with this product as it was delivered to get others perspective. Was I simply being a whinny lite girl or would others feel the same about it as I was feeling. It was an honest attempt to get third party feedback before responding to HNH.

I was honest with HNH when I told them I had posted it to a couple of enthusiast forums and general consensus was that they (responders) would not be happy. Received a "they don't know what there talking about, I've been doing this for 17 years" response.

He never said the order was not real, or any of the posted emails untrue. I have not asked for money back, only a repair.

He responded by telling untruths and attacking my character. I'm very surprised he has not taken the opportunity to clear up anything in my wall of text response to him. Original post, not meant to be spiteful in any way, at this point, I'm a little pissed off at High Noon Holster.

 

[High Noon Holsters]

I'm glad High Noon responded. Because now I know that you are basically paying hand-made prices for machine-made holsters. That "the machine makes no mistakes", so whatever the machine turns out is what you get. No shortage of excuses.



If you're telling me that the S-I-G-H-T track is stitched in perfectly centered and then the leather "stretches" to get it that far out of line, there is either something wrong with your process or your leather.



Yet here we are.

Huge misunderstanding of holster manufacturing. I am not sure you understood my post at all? We and most other holster manufacturers who could afford the dies and the machine to cut would have a different view then yours. One would want the patterns made into steel dies and the leather cut out by a machine instead of by hand, in that way no mistakes are made.

"basically paying hand-made prices for machine-made holsters."

To be clearer and give you an example and how your post is more misinformation is:

And you may not want to hear this but a machine like a "sewing machine" is used to sew with also. I am sure almost any holster maker has one because a sewing machine is 100 times (exaggeration) more accurate then trying to do it by hand.

So should we not use the better method to make a holster with???

Your post makes no sense at all.

Alex

 

[Sam1911]

It is patently absurd to say a sewing machine is more accurate at stitching than someone hand-placing individual stitches. That doesn't even make sense. Maybe you'd like to adjust or clarify your statement? A sewing machine is never used because it is more accurate. Only because it is faster.

Do you only do marketing or c.s. for High Noon or have you ever done a shift behind a stitching machine?


Even if it made basic sense to say that, we're all looking at pictures of holsters that are poorly formed and you're attempting to tell us they are more accurate than the far nicer hand made examples shown?

Please take a bit more time in formulating your responses. This is your reputation you're holding up to light. You only get one ...

 

[BSA1]

YourAlterEgo,

Did I miss where you have actually worn the gun and holster, and if so, over what period of time?

Or is you grievance solely based on the appearance of the front sight and sight track fit in Post #1?

 

[High Noon Holsters]

"The pattern is straight and sewed straight. The problem lies in the molding process. As you should know........ leather stretches and does it even more with the track in there. We can never tell exactly how that track will line up, it all depends on the leather. In any case right , left or center, the front site never will catch on the holster. It can't because our design will not allow it. The leather extends over the muzzle of the gun. I emailed the OP some other pictures, I don't see them posted." You should state this right alongside where you state the "A patented stitched in sight track that is carefully blended into the design". The pictures, you should also post those along with the rest of the nice pictures on your site, and/or you can post them here. If I walk onto a car lot, I can see and test drive the product. I can't do that with internet purchases. You kind of need to tell the customer what deficiencies there may be. Like I've stated previously in this thread, I searched, think I only found one other picture of the sight track and it looked nice, just like the guy that posted just above your first post in this thread.

“The track off a bit is normal, aesthetically the OP wants it centered but in no way does that take away from the quality and function of the holster.” Can you point to one place that I have asked for centered? All that I have asked for is for the sight not to be in contact with the track. I do not want to have to worry about it getting snagged in a situation that would already be high intensity.

“We did offer to make him one in Horse Hide, I wonder where that post went, OP OP why did you leave that out?” I won’t call you a LIAR if you don’t insinuate that I am being deceptive and dishonest here. Can you please post ANY thing you have sent me that substantiates your claimed offer??? I would ask that you redact my email but you will not find any such “offer”.

“And where are our pictures we sent you of the ones with the left center track?” Again, that’s your job to tell me what you’re offering. I don’t see how the pictures of what I consider to be defective help you or me. I kind of said to myself when I saw them, if that many tracks come out defective, why wouldn’t they change the design or LET POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS KNOW THIS!

“We offered the horse because its so stiff, it has less of a chance of one side being a different durometer.” Again, no you did not. Yes I check what’s in my spam box, block true spam, and allow what is not spam. I have received only ONE email you HNH that was not a response to an inquiry or request from me. That was the “THANKS FOR ORDERING” email. The next email was from the delivery company. Fine, there is no use for any other contact but you most certainly did not make the generous offer of horse hide.

“We could make 5 new ones and the track will be off somewhere. What everyone has to understand is its leather and the track is soft rubber, when molded they shift.” It would have been helpful to me if this was stated on your website along with the positive talking points.

“Forums are great places of information and then sometimes they fail, like this post.” It has not been a fail for me. At least I know others would feel the same way I did when I received the holster, and I still do.

“We even offered him a Horsehide upgrade but somehow he failed to mention that.” No you did not. I won’t call you a LIAR if you don’t insinuate I am being deceptive and dishonest. Please provide ANYTHING that substantiates your claim. You have brought this horse thing up several time to make your company look better, but it is simply not true.

“"condescending and a "we've already got your money, so quit bothering me and go away" tone"

You must be joking us, that's not the way High Noon does it. You are another one, a "drive by poster." Get all the information before dirtying up the forum. Its a nice place, lets keep it that way.

Maybe the OP should check his spam box? We offered him the Horse on us, its stiffer and has a better chance to keep the track somewhat straight.”

For me, does feel like "condescending and a "we've already got your money, so quit bothering me and go away" tone, as I stated early on in the post. But I also said I thought you did it politely. Quite telling people they are doing “drive by post”. That is a silly thing to say. They are stating their opinion in response to my initial post. I do check my spam box. I would give about a 0.01% chance that you sent anything to me that was inadvertently deleted. If could post up your “Horse” email, that would be great (I will now refer to this as the “horse ____ email”.


I feel I have been very honest about the product I received from High Noon Holster. I’ve said I like the look, the stiff leather, the finish, etc. I have never asked for my sight to go straight now the middle, but did state that I am not comfortable with it making contact with the track. I have not ask HNH for a refund, discount or anything more than what I paid for. I have posted our correspondence in their entirety, minus two pictures of what I also consider defective. Again I felt and feel they have no bearing on my issue. If they would have been displayed along with the rest of this “features” photos, that would have put the burden of responsibility in my lap. You responding to my concern AFTER PURCHACE with “Hey look, quite a few of our tracks come out pretty screwy”, does not do anything to help the situation. This thread was started with me asking if others would be comfortable with the product I received. I think general consensus says “No”

You have responded for High Noon Holsters by calling me dishonest and deceptive while making claims of a generous “horse ____ email”. Calling others “drive by poster” and laughable for stating their opinion. You defend HNH’s reputation by saying “OP didn’t show you the two pictures I sent him AFTER HE PURCHASED THE PRODUCT of other screwy sight tracks, and by also falsely claiming your generous horse offer? Really? In my opinion, that is poor form.

Again is there anything that you can do to help with my concern, even if it is only to give me some pointers on how to fix it myself.

I am going to skip over most of the bells and whistles in your post and get to the point. We did not call you dishonest and deceptive at all, we suggested you check your spam box, maybe the email did not get to you. We gave you the benefit of the doubt, something you do not do for us. No big deal here.

You out right state we did not send that email etc, etc, etc and we are just saying that to make High Noon look good etc etc. Give us a break, are you joking? Really?

I am not sure if you are new to computers, you are certainty new to this forum. But I now call on who ever is reading this thread, I would like to know, have you ever sent an email and it not get there? Has someone said they sent an email to you and you never got it?

One could have easily turn the tables and say you are a High Noon hater, you got the email and you are lying. Does that make sense??

This case is closed and it does not make you look good in any way. We need to move the conversation to a more mature level.

So the only thing to do now is, lets pretend we sent the email and its lost in cyber space and you just found out. The offer stands get a return number and we will start to make you a horse holster. The track may be off at the front or at the end, I mean the opposite side. But the horse is much stiffer then cow and fares better when it comes to the shift of the track.


Off topic here. It would be much easier for forum members and us to read your posts if when you quote do not put your response right next to the quote. Put it under it. Its really hard to read. Especially when its a big post like yours.

Example here:

What you posted

“Forums are great places of information and then sometimes they fail, like this post.” It has not been a fail for me. At least I know others would feel the same way I did when I received the holster, and I still do

Better way to post

“Forums are great places of information and then sometimes they fail, like this post.”

It has not been a fail for me. At least I know others would feel the same way I did when I received the holster, and I still do.

Alex

 

[CraigC]

High Noon is not scoring any points with me with their comments.

Huge misunderstanding of holster manufacturing. I am not sure you understood my post at all? We and most other holster manufacturers who could afford the dies and the machine to cut would have a different view then yours. One would want the patterns made into steel dies and the leather cut out by a machine instead of by hand, in that way no mistakes are made.

No, machines make it easier for less skilled labor to turn out a decent holster. Sewing machines work faster. They are not better or more accurate. Your statement about machine stitching being 100 times more accurate is laughable at best. How many holsters have you hand stitched to make that statement? Any at all??? Or are you really just a machine operator? To make that statement makes me think you've never made a holster without a machine and are just repeating some nonsense you heard around the shop.

Yes, as with most other things, the best quality work is done by hand. That includes leather work and no, I'm not referring to myself.

I can't help but notice the pronounced stitching in this pic. As if the thread tension was not set properly. The thread should be embedded in the leather to protect it from abrasion. Which we can already see a bit of fraying, even on the new one in the OP. I also see very sloppily and unevenly finished edges. Acceptable on a $50 holster but not on one that cost twice as much. I'd sure as hell be unhappy to see this kind of thing on a $185 black version.

 

[CraigC]

Does anybody see anything "100 times less accurate" about this hand stitching?

 

[CraigC]

My own pic is a good example of what can happen with machine stitching. You can easily see that the stitching is not the same distance from the edge all the way around the holster. Particularly along the bottom. This does not happen when you hand stitch. Because we use tools that Alex has probably never heard of to insure the stitch line is an equal distance from the edge from beginning to end. No holster is perfect, whether made by man or machine but when you make comments about machine stitching being 100 times more accurate than hand stitching, expect to be called on it.

 

[High Noon Holsters]

It is patently absurd to say a sewing machine is more accurate at stitching than someone hand-placing individual stitches. That doesn't even make sense. Maybe you'd like to adjust or clarify your statement? A sewing machine is never used because it is more accurate. Only because it is faster.

Do you only do marketing or c.s. for High Noon or have you ever done a shift behind a stitching machine?


Even if it made basic sense to say that, we're all looking at pictures of holsters that are poorly formed and you're attempting to tell us they are more accurate than the far nicer hand made examples shown?

Please take a bit more time in formulating your responses. This is your reputation you're holding up to light. You only get one ...

That's interesting coming from a moderator and unexpected. Rude and obnoxious would be something else that comes to mind. In 17 years on forums that has not happened from someone who is a "moderator".

If you look on any forum my name, Alex, (also Justin) is there for High Noon, for the past 17 years. I am not a CS or marketing rep. I am in the factory, always. I happened to set up all of our sewing machines from an Adler to a Juki to a Campbell (needle/awl setup).

"It is patently absurd to say a sewing machine is more accurate at stitching than someone hand-placing individual stitches. That doesn't even make sense."

Well, now lets get to sewing machines and your post up top. I disagree strongly.

A sewing machine can be adjusted to throw any stitch length you want. Example being, 8 stitches per inch, 6 stitches per inch etc etc. Whatever the user wants. Its very hard to do that by hand on a consistent basis on a large number of holsters, more then 2.

Also, sewing machine thread tension can be tightened or loosened to affect the needle's thread or the bobbin's thread. It's very difficult to control this by hand stitching, from my experience you get some stitches that look OK but are really loose. The machines thread tension is way more consistent than by hand stitching.

Try taking a hand stitched product apart and then a machine stitched product apart. Only then you will understand what I am saying. Machine is a stronger more consistent stitch.

Sam, please take a bit more time in formulating your responses. This is your reputation you're holding up to light and you are a moderator, one who represents the forum?

You only get one and unfortunately you never get a second chance to make a first impression. I must say I am still shocked at your post.

Holster History for the members.

To give you a bit more info on High Noon Holsters and myself. We happened to be very good friends with the greatest holster maker alive, Red Nichols. We have known him and been friends with him for years. He is the inventor of our military's M9 holster and countless patented other holsters. He drove the industry in holster design. A good education over here http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Red_Nichols/About_Us/about_us.html

Why do you think Red has aligned himself with us? He could pick anyone in the industry. Just a little more food for thought Sam.

Alex

 

[High Noon Holsters]

My own pic is a good example of what can happen with machine stitching. You can easily see that the stitching is not the same distance from the edge all the way around the holster. Particularly along the bottom. This does not happen when you hand stitch. Because we use tools that Alex has probably never heard of to insure the stitch line is an equal distance from the edge from beginning to end. No holster is perfect, whether made by man or machine but when you make comments about machine stitching being 100 times more accurate than hand stitching, expect to be called on it.

Ok Craig not 100 times. You are correct. But I did say 100 times (exaggerated)

 

[Oppy]

After seeing the OPs pic I went and grabbed my XD9 in its High Noon 'Split Decision' Holster. It looks just fine (the site is nearly perfectly aligned), and very finished by comparison (no offense). It's actually very nice for the $40 otd I paid for it. For the money I'd buy from HNH again, no problem.

I also have a US Gun Leather holster that I view as a 'top drawer' holster, but I wouldn't directly compare the two because, although they perform the same function, they are really two different beasts all together.

Maybe I missed it, but I hope in the end there is resolution that is acceptable to both parties...queue the music and drumming circle :>.

 

[High Noon Holsters]

My own pic is a good example of what can happen with machine stitching. You can easily see that the stitching is not the same distance from the edge all the way around the holster. Particularly along the bottom. This does not happen when you hand stitch. Because we use tools that Alex has probably never heard of to insure the stitch line is an equal distance from the edge from beginning to end. No holster is perfect, whether made by man or machine but when you make comments about machine stitching being 100 times more accurate than hand stitching, expect to be called on it.

I can't believe what you post and actually think. The stitching is not the same distance from the edge all the way around the holster because its due to the operator working the machine. Not because its done by a machine. In a walking foot machine which most heavy duty leather machines are you a steering the work, the operator did not stay on the edge. If you knew what you were talking about you would not have posted that.

Alex

 

[Field Tester]

HNH,

Your reply to me was completely unnecessary and you've crossed into the threshold of completely rude. There's no point in responding to you because it's obvious that you cannot handle any criticism or questioning with any tact.

I take your replies to me with great offense and I know that I will NEVER purchase any products from your company. Based off your responses to the others in this thread and unwillingness to stand by your products, I will also recommend to my family, friends, Gun Club and anyone who ever asks in person or on any forums to stear clear of your company. I hope this thread lives as an example for me to point out to others.

 

[Field Tester]

Also, if you dispute the fact the no other emails were sent to make good on your product, why haven't you posted your original missing emails with the time stamp on them? The OP said itwas perfectly fine if you redact his personal info. You haven't done this, yet you still feel content with calling him a liar or "it got lost in the spam filter".

Either way, I'm done with this thread and this company. Your responses have been nothing short of shameful.

 

[CraigC]

Its very hard to do that by hand on a consistent basis on a large number of holsters, more then 2.

Also, sewing machine thread tension can be tightened or loosened to affect the needle's thread or the bobbin's thread. It's very difficult to control this by hand stitching, from my experience you get some stitches that look OK but are really loose. The machines thread tension is way more consistent than by hand stitching.

Try taking a hand stitched product apart and then a machine stitched product apart. Only then you will understand what I am saying. Machine is a stronger more consistent stitch.

Utter nonsense from top to bottom from someone who has obviously never hand stitched a holster in his life.

I can't believe what you post and actually think. The stitching is not the same distance from the edge all the way around the holster because its due to the operator working the machine. Not because its done by a machine. In a walking foot machine which most heavy duty leather machines are you a steering the work, the operator did not stay on the edge. If you knew what you were talking about you would not have posted that.

Yeah, smart guy, I understand it's the guy running the machine. This discussion 'may' have a chance of being productive if you stop assuming you're talking to idiots. Which is probably your approach to customer service and why we're having it in the first place.

Fact is, it is up to the guy running the machine to maintain the distance to edge. The machine does not do it for him and the machine does not guarantee a better stitch or a correct distance to edge. Maybe if YOU knew what YOU were talking about.....

 

[High Noon Holsters]

YourAlterEgo,

Did I miss where you have actually worn the gun and holster, and if so, over what period of time?

Or is you grievance solely based on the appearance of the front sight and sight track fit in Post #1?

Its appearance. Has nothing to do with function of the holster.

Alex

 

[High Noon Holsters]

HNH,

Your reply to me was completely unnecessary and you've crossed into the threshold of completely rude. There's no point in responding to you because it's obvious that you cannot handle any criticism or questioning with any tact.

I take your replies to me with great offense and I know that I will NEVER purchase any products from your company. Based off your responses to the others in this thread and unwillingness to stand by your products, I will also recommend to my family, friends, Gun Club and anyone who ever asks in person or on any forums to stear clear of your company. I hope this thread lives as an example for me to point out to others.

We hope it lives too. We do stand by our products. Search the web

Alex

 

[CraigC]

Has nothing to do with function of the holster.

He stated plainly that he can feel the front sight grinding down the inside of the sight groove.

If you had put half the effort into your actual customer service as you have here just making excuses for poor craftsmanship, you might have actually gained potential customers instead of losing them. Especially considering that your holsters only take minutes to make. Methinks that High Noon has experienced some success and let it go to their heads.

I just remembered that I have a High Noon pancake that is probably 8yrs years old. It came with a used S&W I bought. I was so impressed with it that I have never used it and don't even remember where it is.

 

[High Noon Holsters]

Yeah, smart guy, I understand it's the guy running the machine. This discussion 'may' have a chance of being productive if you stop assuming you're talking to idiots.
Fact is, it is up to the guy running the machine to maintain the distance to edge. The machine does not do it for him and the machine does not guarantee a better stitch or a correct distance to edge. Maybe if YOU knew what YOU were talking about.....

I did said the operator did not stay on the edge. I am not sure why you are getting so mad. Its just a discussion. You have a different opinion and a different way of doing things then I do. Its nothing to get mad at. If you like hand stitching great and you think its better great. My experience and opinions are different. Nothing to get disrespectful over.

Why not go to the 9mm vs 45. Maybe we will get somewhere?

Alex

 

[High Noon Holsters]

Especially considering that your holsters only take minutes to make.

That is on par with my 100 times comment. Coming Craig admit when you are wrong.

Alex

 

[Field Tester]

That is on par with my 100 times comment. Coming Craig admit when you are wrong.

Alex

I think you should show this thread to your superiors before you dig yourself any further. This is not how a quality company responds to a client base.

 

[CraigC]

Mad? Don't flatter yourself. I'm amused more than anything.

If you knew what you were talking about you would not have posted that.

Statements like that are what take it from a discussion to an argument.

You have a different opinion and a different way of doing things then I do.

No, you have made several statements here that are completely untrue and done so out of pure ignorance.

Coming Craig admit when you are wrong.

Prove me wrong and I will gladly admit it. I was obviously being facetious but only exaggerated slightly.

Its very hard to do that by hand on a consistent basis on a large number of holsters, more then 2.

Also, sewing machine thread tension can be tightened or loosened to affect the needle's thread or the bobbin's thread. It's very difficult to control this by hand stitching, from my experience you get some stitches that look OK but are really loose. The machines thread tension is way more consistent than by hand stitching.

Try taking a hand stitched product apart and then a machine stitched product apart. Only then you will understand what I am saying. Machine is a stronger more consistent stitch.

I'd like to see you take this statement to a leather working forum.

 

[CraigC]

Again, Alex, tell us how many holsters you have hand stitched? Are you even able to construct anything out of leather without the dies, presses and machines? For you to make such general statements about the inferiority of hand work, surely you have done a fair amount yourself.

 

[High Noon Holsters]

Again, Alex, tell us how many holsters you have hand stitched? Are you even able to construct anything out of leather without the dies, presses and machines? For you to make such general statements about the inferiority of hand work, surely you have done a fair amount yourself.

I have done patterns and hand work before High noon was able to afford the bells and whistles.

Craig you know the only way to start a new design is make a pattern and then hand cut the holster. I know you know that? I hope you do. Yours posts are misleading at best. Of course we, High Noon and I have to work without dies and presses for new designs.

I never said hand was inferior. Your words not mine. I was talking about the benefits of machine work over hand work.

Leather working forums will have there views on stitching also. The bottom line is that one develops a manufacturing process based on what he is making and what's available to him in the way of tools. I talk to Red Nichols all the time and we all do things different.

Alex