High primers, bullets jumping crimp, and ejector rods

[18DAI]

I was reading some threads on another forum, and noticed that the cheerleaders there were all blustering about high primers, bullets jumping crimp, and loose ejector rods, when talking about old revolvers.

From the jist of those threads, I surmised that what constituted an "old revolver" was any revolver made prior to the year 2000.

So I was trying to remember, if at any time in the last 39 years of carrying, shooting and working on "old revolvers", if I had encountered these puportedly rampant problems.

High primers - In 2006 at an IDPA match in Oxford NC, I was competing with a fairly clean, well..... LNIB S&W model 66-2. On stage 6, while doing a reload, the cylinder did not close on the first try. I reopened, and then closed the cylinder and resumed the course of fire. When I was done the SO said, "That high primer cost you some time there!". Hmmmm....I think it was a dirty chamber that the round hung up on a little. But giving the benefit of the doubt, since evidently high primer problems are so common, indeed rampant, we will say this is what that was. So, in 39 years I've had one "high primer".

Bullets jumping crimp - Despite my best efforts to recollect, and asking all the fellows at my range, I cannot recall ever experiencing this "common problem". Two fellows I shoot with claimed to have seen it happen repeatedly, but low and behold it was two NEW UNOBTANIUM revolvers produced after 2005 that were the offending revolvers!!!! Net result: Zero bullets jumping crimp in 39 years.

Loose, or unscrewed ejector rods - At last! A problem I have experienced! In 1978 I had a 4" model 19 that came loose every few hundred rounds. Eventually my gunsmith loctited it (or the brand name at the time) and resolved that issue.

In 2005 at another IDPA match, firing a S&W 4" 681, I noticed that on stage 5, the cylinder gave me some difficulty opening during a reload. After my string was done, a quick check revealed a loose ejector rod. Hand tightening resolved that issue. Hmmm....both times that this "common" problem arose, my revolvers were still functional, and easily corrected. So, two loose ejector rods in 39 years.

Then again, I do check my carry revolvers every time I reload them. So perhaps I am just extremely lucky......or perhaps I need to own over 40 "old revolvers" instead of just 36. Then perhaps I will begin experienceing all these frequent failures in old revolvers.

What say you other "traditionalists", or "purists"? Are your "old" revolvers failing every time you strap them on?

 

[rcmodel]

Oh!
I have so little faith in them I hardly go outside without my 5" 1950 Target .44 Special when Chupacabra are in season.

I'm with you though.

High primers should not be found on factory loads, and if they are, you should find them before you put them in the gun by simply running your finger over them.

It does happen with inexperienced reloaders, but it shouldn't happen to them either if they even had a clue about proper priming, and inspecting their ammo before shooting it.

Bullet pulling I have seen on factory magnum soft swaged lead bullet loads years ago. A good roll-crimp cures that on any reloads.

All "new" old S&Ws Colts, etc. get a through going over when I get them. If the ejector rod is loose, it gets de-greased and Lock-Tighted.
Same for the cylinder release thumb-piece screw.

Before it leaves my bench, I would take any of them to WWIII with me and trust them with my life.

Matter of fact, I trust the old ones far more then I trust what they are making today.

rc

 

[ArmedBear]

I've tried REALLY HARD to pull lead bullets with deep crimp grooves with a VISE GRIP. No dice.

If those things jump crimp, I'll eat my hat.

Crimp jumping is most likely a problem with jacketed bullets that don't crimp in very well, and IMO are overhyped for animal-defense use.

Rounds that powerful are dubious for self-defense against a human attacker in a really light revolver.

A man is not a bear; IMO quick, on-target followups are more important than the ego boost of shooting the latest super-duper-magnum.

High primers? Well, look. You can tell if a primer is high enough to obstruct a revolver cylinder by looking at it. I've never had a high factory primer, and I don't think I've had a handload either -- but if I did, it would obviously be my own fault.

Screws that come loose from shooting? Sure. That's been true since the black powder days. Loc-tite solves a multitude of such problems, and is worth using.

 

[earplug]

Reloads or factory

Jumping crimp and High Primers are a matter of ammunition checking, not a function of revolver problems.
A loose bullet will cause feeding problems with a pistol, high primers cause misfires.
This would be like blaming a reversed primer on the revolver instead of the reloading operators QC.
Happy to read about another wheelgun shooter that competes.

 

[Hawk]

What say you other "traditionalists", or "purists"? Are your "old" revolvers failing every time you strap them on?

They've had the issues one would expect with pre-owned product. Pre-owned is pretty much all one can aspire to if one is searching out pre-02 S&Ws or any DA Colt.

Which means that, fair or not, the molestations of former owners become part of the "older revolver" landscape. Filed strain screws, adjusted mainsprings, incorrectly installed Colt crane retainer cups, mis-timed, that sort of thing.

This is the sort of thing that I suspect those that bought the older models when they were new will never understand or will dismiss because used market molestations "shouldn't count" or never got stung by something from darkest Bangor Punta.

I've gotten a 686 light striker.
One Python light striker.
A 640 of stubborn extractor rod
An Anaconda with crane retainer molested
A 28-2 that dragged parts on parts never intended to touch
A 57 no-dash massively mis-timed out of the (wooden) box.
An Uberti that launched its ejector housing downrange
A 57-3 that tied up every time I fired it (I learned about "primer only" loads from this episode).


All in the last couple of years, mostly minor stuff, all handled by the excellent advice available on this forum (Fuff and Dfariswheel tag teamed the Anaconda - I remain impressed by their diagnostic ability to this day).

I own far fewer than your 36 but the idea that one can go buy an older revolver and experience the joy of absolute reliability and sublime function just isn't so, barring the kind of luck that would lead one to buy powerball tickets.

Whether or not the occasional glitch is minor or even minor and user error, it takes a while to learn about blue thread locker, backwards threaded extractor rods, shadetree strain screw molestation, skeletonized mainsprings, clipped coil springs, inverted retainer cups, places that are dirt sensitive (those itty bitty pins under the extractor star) and a host of other miniscule "gotchas" that the revolver cognoscenti simply take in stride.

But, I still love the things. The quirks aren't show stoppers but they do exist.

I suspect they'll exist more and more as new buyers enter the used marketplace and the more dubious product makes its way to shelves.

 

[GRIZ22]

High primers are only a problme when someone doesn't inspect the ammo they are going to use,

Jumping crimp is the result of sloppy reloading. Never saw it on a factory round.

As a firearms instructor for about 30 years I've seen a few ejector rods loosen and people loose their cylinder relaease because they they didn't check the screw.

Are your "old" revolvers failing every time you strap them on

I feel just as confident carrying a revolver as I do an auto.

 

[18DAI]

Hawk you evidently have terrible luck with used revolvers, and I hardly consider you a traditionalist, or purist .

I would estimate that two thirds of my revolvers were aquired used. Simply checking them out in the shop enables one to discover a miriad of potential problems. Jim March sticky on revolver check out should be required reading for any wheel gun shooter. A range check out of 200 rounds is usually sufficient to uncover any other problems, or "prior owner molestations", for me.

Also, examining current production revolvers in the shops (as the same ones are present every time I visit ) shows me how well made, and what a bargain, the used revolvers really are.

The new S&W's I have examined have exhibited everything from timing issues to cocked barrels. The EDM rifling being faint/shallow, on more than one. The crowns on almost all of them were terrible. Inexcusable in a brand new revolver. QA/QC is sadly lacking at that particular manufacturer.

Some Rugers I examined had forcing cone burrs and excessive tool marks. In fairness though, the majority of brand new GP100's I looked at had no visible flaws at all. I bought the 3". It is every bit as nice as any revolver I own.

One Taurus CIA had a forcing cone that was visibly cut on an angle. The BC gap was great.......but only on the right side of the revolver!!

The point of my post, was that despite the rantings of the modern revolver fanboys, it is ludicrous to suggest that older revolvers were less reliable, or suffered from the aforementioned problems with any frequency at all.

Buy what you like, carry what you will, but for me, it will be revolvers made prior to the year 2000. TJ

 

[madcratebuilder]

When I first started reloading in the early seventies I experienced some high primers. I had an excellent mentor and he found I had bought a case of brass with undersized primer pockets. Tossed those and I have never had a problem since. Never had a bullet move in the case. I have had an ejector rod come loose. I made the proper tool to tighten them and have not had any more problems with ejector rods.

I own far fewer than your 36 but the idea that one can go buy an older revolver and experience the joy of absolute reliability and sublime function just isn't so, barring the kind of luck that would lead one to buy powerball tickets.

That applies to any used revolver, one year old or one hundred years old.

 

[Hawk]

Hawk you evidently have terrible luck with used revolvers, and I hardly consider you a traditionalist, or purist

Not terrible enough to discourage my continuing to hunt them down but sufficient to make me into a realist and has, to a major extent, cured me of purchasing older revolvers sight unseen over the internet. There are a few exceptions but I've grown to appreciate the value of a check-out.

Neither was I saying that the newer product was exempt.

We're in basic agreement - one simply can't use the sticky over a wire.

My luck may be worse than average but I suspect yours is better than average, or you've been fortunate to only buy locally. Or some combination thereof.

I'll continue to buy older stuff because they're worth it in spite of the issues and you'll continue to buy them because you don't experience or recognize the issues. Either way we're competing in the same marketplace and I suspect the prices will continue to climb.

Where was this other forum? I don't believe I've seen a fanboy of strictly new revolvers. A herd of them must be a sight.

 

[18DAI]

Oh I recognize the issues, I just don't experience them, either through luck, or experience, more likely a combination thereof. Perhaps the "issues" are easily avoidable. Perhaps some of the "issues" are just blown slightly out of proportion to emphasize ones point of view.

Perhaps a better illustration would be in order. I find that the same people who get their panties bunched up over criticism of two piece barrels and internal locks, are the first to decry the supposed "weakness" of K-frame magnums, and dispense advice prohibiting the use of 357's in same.

In my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I have shot many thousands of hot 357 rounds through K-frame magnums without a single problem, and they still lock up like proverbial bank vaults. I have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE seeing a locked up IL equipped revolver (model 329), and two examples of failed two piece barrels (NC DOC model 64's). Which of these two do I believe is "not an issue"?

The S&W forum is where you will want to go to see the vast amount of this........stuff.
It has recently been sold I understand, and it appears to be a fanboys paradise now. Most of the more experienced members have evidently moved on. Quite sad actually. It was a very good source of S&W information for years.

 

[Hawk]

I've not shot anything but .357 from my couple of 66s - it was my understanding they could take any reasonable amount and that .357 "now" isn't quite .357 "then".

You perhaps have me confused with someone else. I've never gotten bunched over criticisms of 2 piece barrels, EDM rifling, locks or MIM. I have gotten into discussions noting that some current barrels are Lothar Walther (I don't know if the L-W product is one piece or two), observed that not all lock equipped product has mim and not all mim product has locks.

I'll have to defer on the matter of the S&W forum - I've been registered there forever but have yet to make my first post. I do lurk there a fair amount though and haven't seen what you see.

The ILIF thread disappeared but all the "stickies" disappeared and the forum office has a thread noting it's simply for sorting to suit the new catagories.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/590103904/m/8181022343

I have seen a request that a "lock hate" posting not be gratuitously dropped into an unrelated discussion but I've never found a lack of hate to equate to fanboy-ism. Such posts are unproductive, there or here. They belong in "tell me about a lock" threads but have no place in a "tell me about a 629" thread.

See here for a refresher from THR:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3207736&postcount=1

Fanboyism of any particular product or era is unseemly and generally boring to those that don't have a dog in the fight. The same can reasonably be said of vitreol and bile. I like 'em all but none are perfect.

 

[18DAI]

Mkay. Hawk it was simply an illustration, not an accusation. Trust me, I haven't mistaken you with anyone else here.

Yes....."none are perfect", where we disagree is that I find new production revolvers to be MORE IMPERFECT than past revolvers.

As to that other board, I think you might enjoy it over there. Perhaps go give it a try. In the meantime, while not meaning to be accusatory, a cursory glance at your previous posts shows you seem to have a knack for derailing threads.

Please go start your own thread on fanboys, modern S&W's, two piece barrels, grass growing in Montana or whatever intrigues you, and don't derail this one. Thanks! TJ

 

[bill in IN]

Haven't had any of those problems myself, but i try to keep my loads below dynamite levels.

 

[Hawk]

In the meantime, while not meaning to be accusatory, a cursory glance at your previous posts shows you seem to have a knack for derailing threads.

Guilty as charged. I do tend to derail "bash threads" and "love threads" - no doubt a character flaw. They trouble me more than they should. So, to make amends:

1. The only issues I've had with high primers were due to firing "primer only" rounds - they back out and stay out unless the flash holes are reamed. Seems the wax bullet crowd already knew this. Have not had it happen on "real" rounds.

2. Jumping crimps - heard about it but never saw it. One would almost assume it would be more prevalent with taper crimps than roll crimps and one doesn't see much of the former in revolvers. Perhaps if 610s were more common. Jumping roll crimps seems unique to flyweight articles.

3. Extractor rods - I had blue thread locker from a previous hobby and it's come in handy - thus far the only real mystery was a 640 that still bound slightly with the thing tightened - took a couple swipes with stone and now it's lovely.

Nice, hunh?

 

[gizamo]

Guess it's a time-spent issue...

I've never really had any problem with a S&W from the olden days that I couldn't fix. In ways, it's like being the Shade Tree mechanic working on the older Chevy's and Ford's. When the parts weren't tied up to computers. Sure things went wrong, but were easy enough to fix. And the guns you bought weren't attached to the hip or lips of a lawyer

Parts were fitted together and not dropped in place. They were made better and out of real steel. Not playdough with metal sintered into it.

Guess the reason I stick to buying the older S&W's is that they were individually hand fitted and finished. There were folks working on the production lines that were trained in their trade, supported their families based on their skills, and believed in the product they were producing.

Never saw a CNC machine that had to put the bacon on the table.

If I wanted a glorified Taurus, well then....guess I'd buy a new S&W...

Sorry for the thread drift....

giz

 

[Jim K]

The only possible "old" vs. "new" issue here is the ejector rod on S&W revolvers. The old (pre-about 1961) rods had right hand threads that tended to unscrew with S&W's left turning cylinder.

In 1961, S&W changed those rods to left hand threads and the problem almost ended, though from time to time someone will try to tighten the rod and unscrew it by mistake. Either way, Loctite solves the problem.

Jim

 

[Waldo Pepper]

I have experienced some bullet backing out on my S&W 12.5 oz 360Sc 357 magnum, but they were uncrimped and the first time I had seen it happen. That said the were 158 gr Hornady max loaded and were so hard on the hand I was glad the 5 round was the inspection round. My 158 gr 1000 fps LSW-HP are no problem with pulling out or killing my hand.

 

[RippinSVT]

My first revolver was an old Smith M&P .38 with 2 1/2 barrel, made at the beginning of WWI, 1914 if I recall correctly. I never had an issue with it beyond a loose ejector rod when I bought it, and it shot just fine.

 

[BIGTAZ351]

"firing a S&W 4" 681"
I have one of those .357 Mag. and I bought it used about 5 years ago, and I have fired literally 1000's of rounds through it of varying loads. I started reloading about 7 years ago and had high primers at first, I have had projectiles "jump" but that was reloader error, (Not Enough Crimp). Never an extractor problem or anything else...Oh wait the standard screw on the cylinder lock release, by your thumb, needed loctite!

 

[Walkalong]

A new range buddy and I went to the range Saturday. He brings his 4" M-66 over and says the cylinder doesn't want to turn. High primer. He is a bit of a sloppy reloader. I am working on him. We loaded the .357's at my house that day, but they were already sized, primed, and belled. I taught him the old "run your finger over the primer" trick at the range. He has been shooting a long time, but doesn't know much about reloading, despite piddling around with it for some years.