High volumetric density pistol powder that meters well?

[Buck13]

I'm pretty low on Trail Boss and Red Dot. For fast powders, I feel more comfortable with as high a volumetric density as possible in hopes of catching a double charge before it's too late.

It sounds like Trail Boss won't be available again soon, if ever. Among powders with a VMD above about 0.125, which meter the best? I use a Lee Perfect powder measure, which doesn't like really fine ball powders, but those have low VMD so shouldn't be a problem with larger grains.

https://leeprecision.com/files/instruct/VMD.pdf

 

[cfullgraf]

W231/HP-38, or Bullseye will meter well and are good, fast burning target powder.

There are others out there3, I just have not used them.

 

[P Flados]

The Lee use of terms for their "VMD" bother me. Density is the inverse of specific volume. Smushing volume and density into one "description" is just wrong. Their VMD is really just specific volume with weird units (cc/grain).

At one time I was looking to find a low density (same as high specific volume) fast burning powder that would meter well in small charges for small handgun rounds.

The two that looked interesting to me were Titewad and VV N310.

Unfortunately, Titewad is marketed for 12 gauge only and VV N310 cost is too rich for my tastes.

231/HP38 and Bullseye are good metering but are not really low density.

There are a bunch of fast burning low density flake powders, but they do not meter well.

I ended up sticking with a powder that metered well, but is much more dense than I want, TiteGroup.

In addition to the Lee info on powder specific volume there is also this:

http://www.tacticoolproducts.com/powder.pdf

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Fluffy powder ? CBI is the King of fluffy powders, near as I can tell. Burn rate near HP-38.

https://www.cdvs.us/product/cbi-pis...-four-4-jugs-for-a-total-of-16-lbs-of-powder/

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Fluffy powder ? CBI is the King of fluffy powders, near as I can tell. Burn rate near HP-38.

https://www.cdvs.us/product/cbi-pis...-four-4-jugs-for-a-total-of-16-lbs-of-powder/

Out of stock.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm pretty low on Trail Boss and Red Dot. For fast powders, I feel more comfortable with as high a volumetric density as possible in hopes of catching a double charge before it's too late.

It sounds like Trail Boss won't be available again soon, if ever. Among powders with a VMD above about 0.125, which meter the best? I use a Lee Perfect powder measure, which doesn't like really fine ball powders, but those have low VMD so shouldn't be a problem with larger grains.

https://leeprecision.com/files/instruct/VMD.pdf

Ramshot Competition is 0.128, available online, inexpensive compared to Red Dot (when you can find it) and burns clean without a full case. I tried it in a Uniflow and it flowed like it’s supposed to. I don’t typically use a meter, hand dippers are fine for me since weigh every throw, but I got one last year as an experiment just to try. Not my bag of marbles but I understand why some people use them.

 

[lordpaxman]

Clays and WST are powders that works really well in several calibers, for light target loads. Since you mentioned a fast powder these are a couple of the fastest I use other than Titegroup. Sport Pistol and N320 are the next fastest, and what I use the most. I’d respectfully suggest working on the process to avoid an under/over charge rather than relying on the powder to prevent it.

 

[sparkyv]

It has taken much repetition to get the VMD concept right in my head. To be clear, VMD is "Volume Measured Density", and is inversely related to density. It's not "wrong", just different; while it can be confusing, it's the prerogative of the concept creator to get to name it (I'd have named it in units of "sparky").
The idea is sound and we reloaders still begrudgingly use it.

The Lee use of terms for their "VMD" bother me. Density is the inverse of specific volume. Smushing volume and density into one "description" is just wrong. Their VMD is really just specific volume with weird units (cc/grain).

 

[Buck13]

The Lee use of terms for their "VMD" bother me. Density is the inverse of specific volume. Smushing volume and density into one "description" is just wrong. Their VMD is really just specific volume with weird units (cc/grain).

Yes, it is bass-ackwards and the weird mix of metric and English units annoyed me at first. But I got over it, and the use of the reciprocal of density does make intuitive sense for what they're trying to convey: that a bigger number for VMD gives a bigger volume of powder for a given weight of charge. Since powders in the same burn speed range tend to have similar-ish charge weights, it does seem to give you an idea of what the relative case fill will be like.

My Lee measure has a volume calibration scale on the adjuster, but I'll admit I rarely try to calculate the required volume before starting to throw charges. Trial and error gets me there just as fast...

 

[Buck13]

Clays and WST are powders that works really well in several calibers, for light target loads.

Those two and Competition were the powders I was considering most likely in addition to Red Dot. Just wondering which meters best. Red Dot is OK in that regard, I guess, but not as good as the AA# series, IIRC. But those are more dense.

Then we'll see if I can find anything at Ye Olde Local Gunpowder Shop, or if I have to resort to mail ordering a couple of pounds. I'm not in a huge hurry, since I haven't been shooting in six months.

I’d respectfully suggest working on the process to avoid an under/over charge rather than relying on the powder to prevent it.

Yes, I definitely try to visually inspect each round. I just like the difference to be as obvious as possible. A double-charge of Titegroup in a .44 Magnum case is visible, I guess, but not as obvious as others.

 

[WeekendReloader]

I use a lot of Clays and VV N320. These fill a 9mm case pretty good.
Bullseye fills a case pretty good to.

Win231/HP38 and ZIP are pretty fast and work well, but don't fill the case as much.
Titegroup works well, but uses very little and can be hard to spot a double charge.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Those two and Competition were the powders I was considering most likely in addition to Red Dot. Just wondering which meters best. Red Dot is OK in that regard, I guess, but not as good as the AA# series, IIRC. But those are more dense.

Then we'll see if I can find anything at Ye Olde Local Gunpowder Shop, or if I have to resort to mail ordering a couple of pounds. I'm not in a huge hurry, since I haven't been shooting in six months.


Yes, I definitely try to visually inspect each round. I just like the difference to be as obvious as possible. A double-charge of Titegroup in a .44 Magnum case is visible, I guess, but not as obvious as others.

I’ve never tried loading a .44Magnum w/ Competition - and there don’t seem to be any loads in the Western 7 or 8 - but I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. I guess if you have three viable options, go with A) what’s available; B) what you have data for; and C) what meters better in your dropper. In something like that order?

 

[lordpaxman]

Those two and Competition were the powders I was considering most likely in addition to Red Dot. Just wondering which meters best.

In my Hornady LNL, WST metered better than Clays for consistency, for smaller 3-6gn loads. The Dillon meters WST very well, I’ve not had Clays through it but others have said it meters well.

 

[kalielkslayer]

Clays and WST are powders that works really well in several calibers, for light target loads. Since you mentioned a fast powder these are a couple of the fastest I use other than Titegroup. Sport Pistol and N320 are the next fastest, and what I use the most. I’d respectfully suggest working on the process to avoid an under/over charge rather than relying on the powder to prevent it.

I was also gonna suggest WST. I’ve never used it in a handgun load, but I use it for light 12 gauge loads. It really fills a case.

 

[kalielkslayer]

Yes, I definitely try to visually inspect each round. I just like the difference to be as obvious as possible. A double-charge of Titegroup in a .44 Magnum case is visible, I guess, but not as obvious as others.[/QUOTE]

I have a paranoia when developing any handgun load. The case can not take 2 charges without overflowing. Many don’t need this precaution, I do!

I also visually inspect because there are 2 things I never want.
1) A double charge
2) A squib round.

And I’ve managed to load a couple squib rounds. Because the case can’t take 2 charges, I’ve never loaded a double charge. But Silhouette does that for me.

 

[Bill M.]

I am using Clays now that I have run out of Trail Boss. Clays does not meter very well for me. I just accept the variations. Well, after I bought a new powder measure and did everything I could think of to make it meter better and failed, I just accept them. I tried HP 38 but there is not much data for lead bullets in .41 Mag and I did not get down to the comfortable velocity I wanted so I went back to Clays. I have not found a powder with good fill and low velocities except for Trail Boss. I load on a single stage and do inspect each drop visually so I hope my technique is good enough. There is plenty of room for a double charge. I have Titegroup. But have not tried it in light loads with coated bullets. I was planning to try the Tite Group but some advised against it when I asked and I had plenty of Clays until recently. Now after loading a bunch of shotgun shells for this winter I am running low on Clays also. And no restock possibility in sight yet. So I am going to try a small batch of Titegroup loads under coated bullets. The .41 Mag is interesting in that you can basically only get 1 bullet weight for it so your low recoil adjustments have to be in velocity.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I tried HP 38 but there is not much data for lead bullets in .41 Mag and I did not get down to the comfortable velocity I wanted so I went back to Clays.

Okay. I'm going to make somebody's head explode here, but hear me out.

Lead bullet data in a revolver, with fast pistol powders, is pretty easy.

Keep dropping the charge until you
A) get the velocity you want, or
B) stick the bullet in the barrel.

It really is that simple.

 

[Bill M.]

Yeah. I expect it is. I would just prefer to skip doing that experiment myself though. And...I like to generate enough pressure to keep the cases a little clean.

 

[Charlie98]

I was also gonna suggest WST. I’ve never used it in a handgun load, but I use it for light 12 gauge loads. It really fills a case.

I used WST for years in 12ga...it's an excellent powder there. I also have used it in mid-range .45ACP 200grn loads, were, again, it works very, very well, with the bonus of being quite clean burning. For many years, I thought WST was a flake powder, like RedDot or Unique, but it was recently pointed out to me that it is, in fact, a mashed ball powder... which probably explains why it meters pretty well. I don't think anything is as bulky as TrailBoss... but a double-charge of WST would be obvious when compared next to a loading tray of properly charged cases.

The .41 Mag is interesting in that you can basically only get 1 bullet weight for it so your low recoil adjustments have to be in velocity.

Not really... there are quite a few bullet weights available if you go to other sources. I've got some 240grn and 250grn cast bullets in .41 up on the bench, now, and I have seen cast as heavy as 265grn. RimRock advertises a 180grn DEWC bullet in .41. They are out there... you just have to go a-hunting for them!

 

[P Flados]

Yeah. I expect it is. I would just prefer to skip doing that experiment myself though. And...I like to generate enough pressure to keep the cases a little clean.

I use Titegroup a lot for low power loads and also found it worked well for "mid range" 357 magnum loads. I have used it to "work down" for "extra low recoil" loads. General guidance I have seen recommended is to not go under around 600 fps for the mouse fart category.

A quick glance found a good bit of Titegroup data for 41 mag athttps://shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/41-remington-magnum/.

Going for a load near 20,000 psi sounds pretty mid range for a 41 mag. I ran some bullets through Quickload set to find loads with this pressure and got charges of 7.1 for a 180 JHP, 6.1 for a 200 JHP, 5.7 for a 220 JHP, 5.5 for a 220 cast, and 5.2 for a 240 cast.

For a lower limit, I ran the 220 cast down to 3.8 to get 650 fps calculated from a 4" barrel (breech to muzzle). The 240 cast took 3.9 gr for 650 fps calculated. I used the 650 fps to give a 50 fps margin for cylinder gap loss.

 

[Varminterror]

Have you given any thought to Cream of Wheat or Polyfill?

 

[LiveLife]

I thought WST was a flake powder, like RedDot or Unique, but it was recently pointed out to me that it is, in fact, a mashed ball powder

Yes, WST is flattened ball powder without coating (Like W231/HP-38/WSF/AutoComp, etc.) so looks light grey.

Clays and WST

Those two ... wondering which meters best.

WST and Clays compared to W231/HP-38. Between the two, WST meters much better due to granule/flake size.

 

[LiveLife]

High volumetric density pistol powder that meters well?

For fast powders ... in addition to Red Dot. Just wondering which meters best. Red Dot is OK

Consider Promo for fluffy powder that meters well with fast burn rate like Red Dot.

My first container of Promo used to look like Red Dot without the red flakes with some round flakes thrown in and used to meter with .2+ gr variance (Red Dot metered with .22 gr variance). But Alliant reblended Promo over the years and after several containers of Promo, it now contains all round flakes without the krinkly flakes and meters better with .12 gr variance out of C-H 502 powder measure (BTW, W231/HP-38 meters with .12 gr variance) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...blended-promo-for-more-accurate-loads.841097/

Early Promo and Red Dot

Old and new "reblended" Promo that meters better

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Consider Promo for fluffy powder that meters well with fast burn rate like Red Dot.

I use Promo with many light target loads in handguns, with lead bullets. From 32 SW Long to 44 Mag.

I also use it in reduced velocity rifle loads.

A very versatile powder. I have a great deal of it.

 

[LiveLife]