Highest possible muzzle velocities with a black powder cartridge??

[saturno_v]

Obviously we all know that modern smokeless powder is more energy dense and capable of higher MV.


What is the practical limit in muzzle velocities for a black powder cartridge?? And which cartridge of the BP era was the fastest??


Thank you.

 

[stressed]

Not sure about cartridge, but the cap and ball Colt Walker was unparalleled until the .357 Magnum came along to equal it.

Was an auction a few years ago where one from the Mexican War that was a family heirloom sold for nearly a million dollars.

 

[jaxenro]

Rifle or revolver?

 

[wap41]

you have to consider muzzel velosity with lead if you get it too fast you'll lead up the bore

 

[saturno_v]

Rifle or revolver?

In both cases

you have to consider muzzel velosity with lead if you get it too fast you'll lead up the bore

Well I would like to know the maximum practical limit, even using jacketed bullets.


Could, for example, a BP rifle reach 2400 fps like a 30-30 round??

 

[jaxenro]

Muzzleloaders and blackpowder cartridge rifles weren't really designed for high velocity were they? It was more large bore large powder lotta lead. You killed by blowing a big hole using a soft lead projectile not by using a small projectile at high velocity

For muzzleloaders I think the Whitworth would push a 400 or so grain 451 diameter slug at about 1200 fps (from memory) so maybe half the 30-30's 150 grain slug

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

... Could, for example, a BP rifle reach 2400 fps like a 30-30 round??

Here is an example that is sort of close if you want it to be. Hodgdon lists 2295 fps with 100gr 3F Triple Seven under a 150gr Knight/ Red Hot projectile in a 45cal 24" barrel in their Muzzleloading Manual.

Link Below.

muzzleloading_manual

 

[Jim Watson]

Some of the old Black Powder Express like the .500-450 No 1 would do 1700 fps. Think 120-150 grains of Curtiss and Harvey No 6 and a 270 grain copper tube .45 hollowpoint.

 

[ofitg]

The old Lyman BP Handbook lists 2505 fps for a .36 rifle, 43" barrel - 70 gr of Gearhart-Owen 3Fg behind a 71-gr round ball.

 

[kBob]

I believe the original BP loadings of the .303 british and 7.5 Swiss both got over 1800 fps most folks do not know those two were first produced with BP initially but the French with their 8mm Lebel caused a lot of changes

-kBob

 

[freedom475]

BP has an extremely slow burn rate... Usually less than 2000fps . It deflagrates so pressure is built slowly as it turns to hot gas.

So therefor is is Impossible for it to ever produce a velocity higher than it's burn rate.

No matter how big the charge, gun, or barrel length, it will eventually all stabilze at the powders maximum burn rate..... if the charge and gun are big enough to alow the time and work space for the powder/projectile to stablize.

 

[[email protected]]

So your saying 2000 fps is it? Well my target load in my 45 Flintlock with a 32
inch barrel beats that. It chronographs 2100 fps with 95 grs Goex FF. I'm sure
it will shoot much faster than that. That's just my target load. I've seen some
chronograph data with a 36 caliber rifle with a 43 inch barrel of 2600-2700 fps
I have never seen any of 3000 fps, but that's not to say it can't be done. You
guys just don't know what they shoot at Friendship. My own Flintlock pistol
chronographed 1400 fps. These are facts, not hearsay.

 

[freedom475]

Well I have read "burn rate figures" that never seem to be based on facts...

But the one figure that is fact is that the Govt. rating that Black Powder is classifed under has a maximum burn rate of 3000fps....anything over this is not a "low" explosive

I sure don't claim to understand the complexities of this...but the burn rate has to do with the speed sound in ralation to the expanding pressure wave...but the speed of sound is different in different gases, pressures, and temperatures.

 

[Don McDowell]

The highest velocity with blackpowder and cartridge guns ran at or around 1800 fps, those were the small bores that came along just prior to smokeless being manageable.

 

[justashooter in pa]

the detonative rate of an explosive like BP is usually measured without containment.

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/npsg/explosives/Chapter2.pdf
Low explosives - Their detonation velocity rate is below 3,280 feet per second. (Black powder rate is 1,312 fps) High explosives burn or detonate at a rate of above 3,280 f.p.s. (Dynamite-about 9,000 f.p.s.; RDX - 27,500 f.p.s.)

to get high velocity you need sustained containment and controlled burn. once you have that you can get velocities up to about 3000 fps with black powder.

that being said, most sporting gun designs of the black powder cartridge period considered a balance of potential energy, leading vulnerability, and portability (weight). lead alloys of the period could be tinctured with antimony and water quenched and run up to 2200 fps, but this was an imperfect science for most practitioners, so velocities were arbitrarily set at 1300-1700, for which bullets could be readily cast by just about anyone. you see velocities like this in most victorian era cartridges like the 43 mauser, 45-70, and etc. guns of reasonable weight were scaled to contain such pressure as was produced, out of steel alloys available at the time (mild steel less strong than 1020 AISI).

 

[Don McDowell]

Those velocity's were not arbitrarily set because of the lead alloys. They weren't set at all, there is only so much room in a cartridge and when you've stuffed all the powder into that case you can get , that's all the faster the bullet is going to go. That is why they kept machining longer and longer cases, more powder, more speed..
The science of lead alloys was alive and well at that time, and velocity had little to do with the bullet hardness. Most were 16 or 20-1 along with pure lead. They also used very hard alloy for long range target competition, and 11-1 is not an uncommon alloy in some brands and variations of target bullets from the day.

 

[Bezoar]

well what about FIELD ARTILLERY?

 

[Don McDowell]

Well heck you can even count the guns on battleships if you want to get really silly about the "blackpowder cartridge" thing...

 

[Archie Otto]

Great question. I have not been able to get over 1400 from my .45-70 but that is using 500 gr bullets and 63gr. of the holy black.

 

[Don McDowell]

Bh209 is not blackpowder..

 

[kBob]

RE: Field Artillery.

Rodman did research on pressing artillery powder into different shapes and sizes as well as different shape holes in the plates and chunks he created in the late 1850's during the development of the 3" Ord. Rifle that the Union used so much. ( now there is your fine example of a run on sentence) I understand he got 3 inch shells well into the supersonic range but barrel wear was an issue. For those who do not know artillerist have long logged every shot with emphasis on Full Charge Equivalent. It is nice to have data to determine when your tube is going to, on average, loose accuracy (mainly velocity change from blow by) or blow up.

WWII battleships main charges were smokeless grains of unusual size with a large BP initiator.

Modern 155mm and 105mm rounds are usually subsonic BTW.

-kBob

 

[Busyhands94]

For what it's worth, my little pipsqueak BP wildcat got me 1400 FPS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8rB7dR2UXU