Commissar Gribb
Member
XM16? how would it be inferior to the test model M16?
HIGHLY EVOLVED: The HK416 Enhanced Carbine
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XM16? how would it be inferior to the test model M16?
Tony Williams
Member
It seems to have worked out OK - I have heard no serious complaints, and much praise, from users in Iraq. See: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/SA80.htm
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
It's based on the existing weapon system, unlike the SCAR or XCR. That would (at least in theory) make it cost less to implement, if it can be shown that the HK416 offers an improvement over the direct gas impingement M16/M4 systems. It also retains the same manual of arms as the M16/M4, so training is essentially unaltered. Only a few additional steps involving field stripping and cleaning need to be dealt with.
HK416 uppers can be used with current, in-stock M16/M4 lower receivers. Instead of purchasing whole new rifles, only the upper receivers would need to be purchased, at least initially. From what I understand, there's less bureaucracy involved in getting that kind of thing accomplished.
HK416 uppers can be used with current, in-stock M16/M4 lower receivers. Instead of purchasing whole new rifles, only the upper receivers would need to be purchased, at least initially. From what I understand, there's less bureaucracy involved in getting that kind of thing accomplished.
AZ Jeff
Member
It sounds like the SA80/L85 series might finally be sorted out. Too bad it's out of production now............
Nah it's a good thing, Tony writes that GB might have to go to the F2000 instead. And if that works well for them maybe our brass will get a clue and adopt it. Ah but adopting a bullpup would mean thinking outside the box wouldn't it.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
There are no shortage of gas piston systems for the AR15 if that's what you like. Immediately available for sale to average joes right now are:
ZM-300
DSA/POF Gas Piston Upper
Leitner-Wise Gas Piston
Kurt's Kustom Gas Piston
There are probably another dozen gas piston systems that are either confined to just a few prototypes or are restricted only to military and LE for the time being.
Of course you often trade one set of problems (carbon fouling in the chamber, increased hear) for a different set of problems (increased weight, reciprocating mass, bolt bounce, key shear) when you switch systems but I hear some of these are quite promising.
ZM-300
DSA/POF Gas Piston Upper
Leitner-Wise Gas Piston
Kurt's Kustom Gas Piston
There are probably another dozen gas piston systems that are either confined to just a few prototypes or are restricted only to military and LE for the time being.
Of course you often trade one set of problems (carbon fouling in the chamber, increased hear) for a different set of problems (increased weight, reciprocating mass, bolt bounce, key shear) when you switch systems but I hear some of these are quite promising.
Commissar Gribb
Member
i'd certainly like to try one out.
if anything, a 16" piston AR would make a good plinker.
if anything, a 16" piston AR would make a good plinker.
Don't understand
Third_Rail states:
"It's an M16 using a gas oprod instead of direct impingement.
Woo, what an advance."
I feel it is a real advance on the contrary.
Finally a weapon that incorporates all the great features of the M16 series (ergonomics, adaptability, etc.) WITHOUT the shorfalls.
A weapons built using high quality manufacturing processes and materials that ensure unseen integrity untils now, by a manufacturer recognized by most.
Also, magazines that have been tested with over half a million rounds in all conditions (snow, mud, sand etc.).
No longer will we say that Kalashnikov's of this world are more reliable.
You should rejoice that a firm has reengineered one of modern warfares most fantastic systems and rejuvenated it for a while. Not just added or adjusted a feature and called it "new".
So sorry, the lack of enthusiasm is linked to the fact it's not within one's reach. Period.
Or, you we are just spoiled with too many toys.
No offense.
Third_Rail states:
"It's an M16 using a gas oprod instead of direct impingement.
Woo, what an advance."
I feel it is a real advance on the contrary.
Finally a weapon that incorporates all the great features of the M16 series (ergonomics, adaptability, etc.) WITHOUT the shorfalls.
A weapons built using high quality manufacturing processes and materials that ensure unseen integrity untils now, by a manufacturer recognized by most.
Also, magazines that have been tested with over half a million rounds in all conditions (snow, mud, sand etc.).
No longer will we say that Kalashnikov's of this world are more reliable.
You should rejoice that a firm has reengineered one of modern warfares most fantastic systems and rejuvenated it for a while. Not just added or adjusted a feature and called it "new".
So sorry, the lack of enthusiasm is linked to the fact it's not within one's reach. Period.
Or, you we are just spoiled with too many toys.
No offense.
ATFE banned the importation of barrels that would be assembled in the US into a "prohibited" weapon. Combined with the other parts prohibitions and the fact that HK won't be building anything in the US (have they even started on their factory), no 416 uppers will be coming in.
Well that kind of sucks. But I guess I had it in my mind that they wouldn't bother selling 416 uppers commercially unless they set up shop over here anyway. What other parts are affected by the new ruling? And what does "prohibited weapon" mean?
I don't think it would be a huge deal to set up a hammer forging machine for rifle barrels over here so long as they set up everything else they were planning on (handgun manufacturing for the DHS contract, I mean). Then maybe they could import the rest of the parts.
Hell, I'd buy the gas block, piston, op rod assembly and bolt carrier (key?) if I could, then have a barrel made and build the thing myself. But that seems pretty far-fetched. HK doesn't appear to be into that kind of thing. Plus they've got a little competition for AR short piston systems here anyway. Theirs just looks particularly nice to me.
I don't think it would be a huge deal to set up a hammer forging machine for rifle barrels over here so long as they set up everything else they were planning on (handgun manufacturing for the DHS contract, I mean). Then maybe they could import the rest of the parts.
Hell, I'd buy the gas block, piston, op rod assembly and bolt carrier (key?) if I could, then have a barrel made and build the thing myself. But that seems pretty far-fetched. HK doesn't appear to be into that kind of thing. Plus they've got a little competition for AR short piston systems here anyway. Theirs just looks particularly nice to me.
I don't recall HK ever saying that they were the first group of people to think up putting a short stroke piston on an AR-15 before. If they did ever say that, you're right, they were way wrong.
What I have seen them suggest is that their particular gas piston system is an improvement over previous systems. I personally have yet to observe that as fact, but I think it is a fair statement to make, especially when you're trying to market and sell something that is different enough to have been patented.
I see nothing wrong with HK marketing their ideas, at least in the way I've seen them advertised. ZM, POF/DSA, and Leitner-Wise have all done the same. It's your responsibility as the consumer to read between the lines and investigate further prior to throwing your hard-earned money into it.
As far as I'm concerned, after looking at HK's patents and a good bit of other information regarding their piston system (as well as others), I think I would like to try one out, given the opportunity. Because others have done something similar in the past doesn't mean they did it best or even well.
What I have seen them suggest is that their particular gas piston system is an improvement over previous systems. I personally have yet to observe that as fact, but I think it is a fair statement to make, especially when you're trying to market and sell something that is different enough to have been patented.
I see nothing wrong with HK marketing their ideas, at least in the way I've seen them advertised. ZM, POF/DSA, and Leitner-Wise have all done the same. It's your responsibility as the consumer to read between the lines and investigate further prior to throwing your hard-earned money into it.
As far as I'm concerned, after looking at HK's patents and a good bit of other information regarding their piston system (as well as others), I think I would like to try one out, given the opportunity. Because others have done something similar in the past doesn't mean they did it best or even well.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I just read the SAR review of this weapon and I have to say I am incredibly disappointed in that magazine. SAR was basically regurgitating H&Ks promotional material with little critical evaluation at all.
Reading the SAR article, you might think that the M4 carbine was only a small step above the reliability of a blackpowder flintlock carbine. They were really harsh on the old system and were quite congratulatory to H&K without mentioning any of the problems in the system.
To just use one example, they congratulated H&K heartily on their improved magazine system without mentioning the increased cost, the problems with certain batches, the corrosion on the follower in maritime use, or the success of GI mags with improved followers.
I've got to say that I always thought the H&K 416 looked like a very promising and interesting system; but anytime they try to force that much sales propaganda down my throat I start to get suspicious.
Reading the SAR article, you might think that the M4 carbine was only a small step above the reliability of a blackpowder flintlock carbine. They were really harsh on the old system and were quite congratulatory to H&K without mentioning any of the problems in the system.
To just use one example, they congratulated H&K heartily on their improved magazine system without mentioning the increased cost, the problems with certain batches, the corrosion on the follower in maritime use, or the success of GI mags with improved followers.
I've got to say that I always thought the H&K 416 looked like a very promising and interesting system; but anytime they try to force that much sales propaganda down my throat I start to get suspicious.
Ivy Mike
Member
Sounds to me like this could compromise a little of the AR's accuracy. They are adding a bunch of moving metal to the weapon.
While I don't think it will hurt things too much, it certainly can't help.
Then again, what good is an accurate rifle if you have it in pieces trying to unjam the thing.
While I don't think it will hurt things too much, it certainly can't help.
Then again, what good is an accurate rifle if you have it in pieces trying to unjam the thing.
BerettaNut92
Member
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Dude. C'mon. Korean SWAT women with Daewoo .223s are hot. But Korean SWAT women with HKs are even hotter....
mons meg
Member
Yeah, but after handling a couple, I have to admit these are the Best...AR....Mags...Ever. Times two.
Well, maybe the HK "AR" mags work flawlessly in the HK 416 Enhanced Carbine, ... 
... but earlier this summer at a Tactical Rifle school I watched a few of them turn an otherwise perfectly operable AR carbine into a jam-o-matic. This AR had been running just fine using ordinary 30-rd mags (LaBelles, I believe). But its owner wanted to try the "latest" hot mags. While he might have been expecting "oohhhs & ahhhs," the jamming problem just produced blank stares from the unimpressed.
I've seen these HK mags running between $45-$65 - all steel and supposedly the best on the market. Too pricey for me, though. (No rap on the HK 416; I'm sure it runs fine).
For now I'll stick with my 20-rd Colt and 30-rd military-contract mags in my ARs. They work.
... but earlier this summer at a Tactical Rifle school I watched a few of them turn an otherwise perfectly operable AR carbine into a jam-o-matic. This AR had been running just fine using ordinary 30-rd mags (LaBelles, I believe). But its owner wanted to try the "latest" hot mags. While he might have been expecting "oohhhs & ahhhs," the jamming problem just produced blank stares from the unimpressed.
I've seen these HK mags running between $45-$65 - all steel and supposedly the best on the market. Too pricey for me, though. (No rap on the HK 416; I'm sure it runs fine).
For now I'll stick with my 20-rd Colt and 30-rd military-contract mags in my ARs. They work.
With many of our M16/M4 rifles reaching the end of their service lives, we have to find an affordable, acceptable solution, now. Utilizing this inspiration, Heckler & Koch (HK) has been working on an enhanced carbine that would outperform all current competition grade 5.56mm carbines in effort to provide superior performance after the incredibly successful mid-life upgrades to the British SA80 (L85/L86) Weapons System. And now, HK has stepped up to the plate with their newest enhanced carbine -- the HK416.
The HK416 operates on a short-stroke piston gas system that does not introduce propellant gases back into the weapon's interior, therefore reducing carbon fouling and cleaning time. This gas system is not sensitive to barrel length or ammunition changes, and has user-removable components. The HK416 also has a free-floating fore end with an innovative 4-quadrant rail system designed by HK. This enables all current accessories to be fitted to the weapon. The fore end can be removed and reinstalled without tools, and with no loss in zero. This weapon utilizes one of HK's famous cold hammer-forged barrels, which provides a substantial increase in reliability, service life, and operator safety. These barrels are forged with the highest quality steel in a unique manufacturing process. This produces a product that provides superior accuracy for greater than 20,000 rounds with minimal degradation of accuracy and muzzle velocity
The HK416 operates on a short-stroke piston gas system that does not introduce propellant gases back into the weapon's interior, therefore reducing carbon fouling and cleaning time. This gas system is not sensitive to barrel length or ammunition changes, and has user-removable components. The HK416 also has a free-floating fore end with an innovative 4-quadrant rail system designed by HK. This enables all current accessories to be fitted to the weapon. The fore end can be removed and reinstalled without tools, and with no loss in zero. This weapon utilizes one of HK's famous cold hammer-forged barrels, which provides a substantial increase in reliability, service life, and operator safety. These barrels are forged with the highest quality steel in a unique manufacturing process. This produces a product that provides superior accuracy for greater than 20,000 rounds with minimal degradation of accuracy and muzzle velocity
This thread is almost 4 years old. Why don't you start a new thread on the HK416?
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