Historical Firearms Identification Help

[TuckerNielson]

If anyone on this planet can identify the two guns in this photo, I'm betting they frequent this forum.

I turn to the sages of the high road (Dr. Rob and the like) to help me with this. I married into a Greek family and the only information they could give me was that the picture was taken between 1898 and 1905 (how they know that I don't know). The person's name was not known at the time, but everybody believes he was a war hero. When I asked what war, I got cold, piercing eyes shot at me (enough to make me flinch). "Why the one against the ungodly Turks!" was the only verbal answer that I could get. To which I responded "... you mean the Greco Turkish War? But I don't think that started until 1920...". Which was met with more piercing stares as if I said something blasphemous. Somebody muttered something about me being a yankee and everybody went back to eating.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa461/Tuckernielson/?action=view&current=sc02563dcc.jpg

I'd love to know the identity of both guns and any other information you detective geniuses can glean. I'd love to know about the scope.
Apparently somebody in the family (probably a cousin named Nick) has the pictured guns in a storage unit somewhere. If I can return to them with some interesting knowledge I might be granted custody of the guns as everybody knows I'm the Yankee with the gun safe.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Dr.Rob]

He's got a 1903 Colt .32 ACP stuffed in his bandolier and a Savage Model 99 rifle... interesting war choice there! Nice old stright sided scope.

The lever shape on the rifle will give me the exact age.. let me look around.

 

[Jim Watson]

Given that period, the pistol is a Colt 1903 .32 ACP.

The rifle is a Savage, either an 1895 or 1899, probably but not certainly cal. .303 Savage.

The scope might be a Malcolm such as Leatherwood is now selling a Chinese copy of, but there were others of similar type, possibly a Cataract.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Jim from what I've read all model 95's were .303 Savage, the 99 was available in others. The cartridges in the belt look short enough to be that... which was sort of an improvement over the .30-30, but not the same as a British .303. 170gr bullet @ 2100 fps or so.

The Turks were then fielding, among other weapons, the 1895 Winchester in 7.62x54 Russian. American arms saw use all over the world post civil war. Governments wanted American weapons badly.


Savage designed the 95 as a military rifle but only a handful were adopted in small numbers by state militias. However the slightly refined model 99 it was their most successful rifle design--which were made up until 1997.

 

[TuckerNielson]

Wow, under 20 minutes!

I knew you guys would come through for me. Thanks.

But why was a colt 1903 and a savage lever action issued to a Grecian soldier in 1905? Seems like an odd choice. Anybody have any knowledge of what Greece issued to their soldiers? My Google-fu came up short.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Well that rifle wasn't tapped at the factory for a scope until the 1950's. So it's an aftermarket add-on. Not the sort of thing you'd likely see in an 'army' rifle. Scopes were pretty fragile items in that time frame and almost unheard of on military arms. The 1903 Colt was exported widely and saw military use.

Arms were often provided by the photographer. He has thoughtfully provided a brick and a muslin backdrop over that victorian era carpet. Firearms were often used as 'symbols' of virility, martial flair or to display one's personal wealth. Even the period 'costume' (or a part of it) might be the photographer's rather than the subject's. Photos like this are very common in the era and studios often kept an odd assortment of weapons and prop guns to 'set a mood.' "Ah, you are a soldier? yes we'll give you a rifle and a jaunty hat yes?"

But if 'cousin' Nick really has them... there's a story there for certain. The guns in cousin Nick's closet might be very different. I have found no record of militray use of the Savage 95 or 99 in large numbers.

 

[TuckerNielson]

Once again your knowledge astounds me. Thanks again.

 

[Dr.Rob]

That's my art direction background talking, not my 'gun nut know-how.'

I have a friend who collects Victorian photos, there are some really odd things out there.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't know what the Greek uniform was in those days, but you sure wouldn't go 'round with a pistol lightly stuck into your cartridge belt. If it was his and not a studio prop, he surely would have had a proper holster.

Greece adopted the 1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer in 1904 but deliveries did not start until 1905 and they were not in general issue until 1907. Before that, they were still using the old single shot Gras. Certainly not Savage lever actions. So the one here is either a studio prop, his own hunting rifle, or even a privately owned weapon carried in service like Fidel Castro's Remington 740 or George Armstrong Custer's Remington Rolling Block.

 

[Cosmoline]

In the early 20th century, the '99 was the latest and greatest technology. I've seen many photos of well-heeled adventurers with them up here for the various gold rushes around that time. To get one meant that you were able to spend $$ on a very nice new rifle rather than spending much less on a surplus single shot or Civil War rifle musket. I would expect that to hold doubly true for Greece. So while it could be a prop gun, it's one heck of a nice prop gun! I would suspect it was part of the photographer's kit if it were some beat up rolling block, instead of the period equivalent of a tricked-out AR with the latest uber-high tech sights. That's assuming the period you were given was correct. If this was later on, after the Turkish war, then it's more likely to have been a shop prop.

OTOH, what are the cartridges in his belt? They don't look like they belong to either weapon, so maybe Dr. Rob is on the money. I still think that means the photo was taken later, though. The answer may lay in the details of the '99.

 

[Jim K]

The rifle is a Savage 1895, not an 1899. And the cartridges are certainly not .303 Savage; they look like .45-70.

I think the use of photo props is very likely, or at least cannot be ruled out. I also wonder if it is possible the picture was not taken in Greece at all, but in the U.S. Does the family know when the subject of the photo came to the U.S. and if he brought his uniform with him?

Jim

 

[TuckerNielson]

Given the lore that has grown around this ancestor I think that anything is possible. If I suggested to my in-laws that this photo could have been taken in the United States rather than in the homeland and possibly after the God-sanctioned war with the unholy Turks, I may be disowned.

On close inspection of the photo the 'uniform' looks suspiciously like a costume.

As always I am amazed at the knowledgeable members here at the High Road.

Thanks for everything,

Tucker