history of red dots on rifles

[kBob]

Does anyone know of a combat use of red dot sights on military rifles before the US Special Forces raid on that North Vietnamese prison camp near the end of the VN War?

They used some Single Points, the unpowered models without tritium. The Single Point was an Occluded Eye scope, that is one did not actually look through it but only into it to see the dot and kept the non firing eye open and on target so it appeared to the shooter the dot was on target. The SF fabricated a means of using a hidden battery powered light .....and military duck tape...... to power the scopes used in the mission.

I have seen open source printed info on this, including a photo. Also spoke to someone involved that mentioned it.....when he saw such a scope on a Privately owned rifle of mine about 1980.

Anyone know of an earlier use?

-kBob

 

[OpticsPlanet]

It's not earlier than that, but I can contribute these:

First functional engineering prototype, EOTech Holographic Weapon Sight:



Second functional engineering prototype:



Both prototypes from 1994.

Mark H.

 

[Jenrick]

It was actually the Armson OEG (well a very early model) that was used at Son Tay.

http://www.armsonusa.com/armsonoeg.html

I have never heard of a US military use of anything similar prior to that though.

-Jenrick

 

[kBob]

Jenrick,

The scope in the photo was not an Aimpoint, but a Singlepoint. The scope IDed by a member of the planning team for the raid was not an Aimpoint but a Singlepoint. Discussion with someone at Ft. Bragg I can not vouch for indicated the scopes were Single points.

I am not sure the Aimpoint even existed at the time of the raid. Even in South Africa.

At least one person at Ft. Bragg seemed to think the Singlepoints were introduced via some sort of SF work with the SAS at the time.

I know Aimpoint has in the past indicated they had the first tritium powered scopes in the US. I first saw their adds for this after having had a powered singlepoint for a couple of years. The original Singlepoints had a clear accrylic dome over the front of what looks like and ordinary scope inside of which was an orang-ish red light comminatory appearently much like the light tube sights of today but larger. The worked under bright moon light, but failed with out the moon.

The later tritium powered Single point differed only in having a frosted truncated cone front rather than the clear dome and had a tritium source with in the scope that for several years produced a bright aiming point and a different finish.

Also the unpowered Single points were available with a small dot for use on rifles or a larger dot for use on shot guns, but I am unaware of but one dot size for the later H3 Single points.

The single points worked even as LER scopes on handguns and forward mounting on SMGs what with their generous rear lens.

FOr whatever reason they never caught the eye of the gun press as much as the aimpoint other than an article in one of the annuals, I believe Guns and Ammos annual one year.

-kBob

 

[kBob]

Mark,

Thanks for those photos. They really show what went into proving the concept of the EOtec scopes.

Thanks.

-kBob

 

[benEzra]

Aimpoint was created in 1974, primarily for the civilian market, and sold their first optic in 1975.

http://www.aimpoint.com/about-aimpoint/history/

According to Wikipedia, this is said to have been the first LED-based red dot sight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimpoint_AB

The difference between the Aimpoint and its successors, and the older OEG gunsights, is that you cannot see through an OEG. If you are a right-handed/right-eyed shooter, you see the target with your left eye and the dot with your right eye, and if you close your left eye you will simply see the dot on a black background rather than seeing it superimposed on the target.

 

[kBob]

jenrick,
Sorry abouyt the brainfart above , I have had the aimpoint/single point arguement so many times I read aimpoint instead of Armson......still it was not an Armson according to Trijicaon and their website which I quote below......


"Tritium-illuminated red dot Armson OEG introduced. Similar to the original single-point used in 1970 Son Tay raid in Vietnam, but with more robust features and a variety of mounting systems for popular rifles and shotguns."

Notice they say "oroogonal single point used in 1970, not armson or anything else.

-kBob

 

[ofitg]

The difference between the Aimpoint and its successors, and the older OEG gunsights, is that you cannot see through an OEG. If you are a right-handed/right-eyed shooter, you see the target with your left eye and the dot with your right eye, and if you close your left eye you will simply see the dot on a black background rather than seeing it superimposed on the target.

As indicated by benEzra, the Singlepoint and the Armson OEG sights relied upon perfect "binocular" alignment of the shooter's two eyes. This was fine when the weapon was shouldered and immediately fired. Unfortunately, since the "scope" eye could not see the target, the shooter's binocular vision would "un-lock" in a few seconds - a phenomenon called "phoria"- when that perfect alignment of the two eyes was lost, accuracy would suffer. In other words, the Singlepoint and Armson OEG were not suitable for slow deliberate aiming. I believe this is why they never became more popular.

The old Weaver Qwik Point was introduced around 1971 - since both eyes could see the target, phoria was prevented - but I never heard of the Qwik Point being used by the military.

 

[kBob]

oftig,

Yep. The weaver was adifferent animal. When they came out one option for the weavers was for a mount that replace the rear sight of a Winchester 94. I played with one at the time and rather thought it a good option on a lever gun.....apparently few other folks did. The LER set up of the quick point did not interfere with the "tote-ability" if the lever gun like a traditionally mounted scope.

The issue with binocular vision was not as large in the Infantry /Special Ops crowd as one is supposed to have good binocular vision to participate. You are correct how ever that if one sits staring at a target and the back end or an OE type scope that the dot starts to sort of wander. Not knowing the proper optometric terms we just said your shooting eye was "looking" for what he non firing eye was seeing rather than that dot.

Anyone know what year the Brits started using their susat or whatever it was called on FN SLRs? The sighting pipper was H3 powered on those and one did look through them. I know some surplus outfit in the US was selling them with a LED lamp and battery set up to replace the H3 element. Unfortunately when a unit was available to me I was in grad school and not exactly flush with cash.

Were the scopes on the EM1 and EM2 power or a dot type of any sort?

I am also interested in the use of H3 aiming dots on handguns. My first experience with these was late 74 or early 75 in Europe when I shot a Star B type I thingk they called the Star Light/ Star Lite. It had a light weight frame and H3 sight dots. Interesting ly they were a single blueish dot at the base of the rear sight notch and an single blueish dot on the front sight. They were used by just aiming to sae a : image on the target and worked well out to 25 meters for me in conditions where I could see a target outline but not the iron sights. Funny that today and American custom gun maker seems to want to call this set up, again the first I ever saw 40 years ago by his own name.

Having used three dot systems since, I still like the two dot system better.

Before H3 scopes were generally available We took an unpowered Single point and made an PCV pipe affair that contained an old Wheat light bulb (LEDs were not common at the time) a battery holder and switch. We also put a bit of "Ranger Eye" tape in the front of the inside of the device. This allowed us to power up the unit when needed and to have the dot visible for a bit after we turned the unit off or the battery failed. At the time I was unaware the US SF troops on that raid had used flashlight bulbs and duct tape for a similar effect so was thrilled when I was told about it later that at least I was thinking in the right direction.

I think I know where some of the Single Point scopes are and will see if I can do some pictures in the near future.

-kBob

 

[ofitg]

Anyone know what year the Brits started using their susat or whatever it was called on FN SLRs? The sighting pipper was H3 powered on those and one did look through them. I know some surplus outfit in the US was selling them with a LED lamp and battery set up to replace the H3 element. Unfortunately when a unit was available to me I was in grad school and not exactly flush with cash.

The S.U.I.T. scope was the forerunner to the SUSAT. I've seen photos of them, but I never encountered one in person. Looking around on the internet, the earliest date I could find associated with the SUIT scope was 1972.

FWIW, I came across an interesting forum post which provided instructions for refurbishing the SUIT with fresh tritium -

http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Foru...x-scope-tritium-re-animation!!&highlight=suit

 

[MasterSergeantA]

Not a rifle sight, but...

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/nydar-reflex-sight/

I have one of these and it is built like a tank. They come up for sale on evilbay now and again.

 

[OpticsPlanet]

The American Rifleman magazine had an article about the Weaver Qwik-Point in their November 1973 issue.

This is from the Trijicon History page:
"Tritium-illuminated red dot Armson OEG introduced. Similar to the original single-point used in 1970 Son Tay raid in Vietnam, but with more robust features and a variety of mounting systems for popular rifles and shotguns."

I gave my Armson OEG away a couple of years ago, couldn't find any way to have the tritium replaced, and with only one good eye these days, an Occluded Eye Gunsight isn't of much use to me. Blood clots where my retina joins the optic nerve, one of the joys of diabetes.

Mark H.

 

[M2iuser]

Many OEG sights were used in the 'Bush Wars' I had one on my FAL in Rhodesia, fast on moving targets of opportunity but poor in low or no light environments.

 

[Sistema1927]

I had an Armson OEG on a Mini-14 back in the '90's. A little bit big for what it was, but very fast to get on target.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

As indicated by benEzra, the Singlepoint and the Armson OEG sights relied upon perfect "binocular" alignment of the shooter's two eyes. This was fine when the weapon was shouldered and immediately fired. Unfortunately, since the "scope" eye could not see the target, the shooter's binocular vision would "un-lock" in a few seconds - a phenomenon called "phoria"- when that perfect alignment of the two eyes was lost, accuracy would suffer. In other words, the Singlepoint and Armson OEG were not suitable for slow deliberate aiming. I believe this is why they never became more popular.

The old Weaver Qwik Point was introduced around 1971 - since both eyes could see the target, phoria was prevented - but I never heard of the Qwik Point being used by the military.

Technically the phoria refers the movement that some people have when binocular vision is lost. These are people who need a prismatic correction in their prescription (whether they know it or not). The main issue for most people is parallex. Lucky Gunner has a good explanation: http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/occluded-eye-aiming/ OEA is not good enough past 25 years.

Mike