Scout Rifles: Jeff Cooper on Red Dot Sights, 1994

[Walkalong]

A red dot with 1x magnification is not much better than iron sights, it's only advantage would be in low light applications

And for older yes, or younger eyes, that can't see them clearly. Some day grasshopper, some day.

 

[Walkalong]

I've seen this video, this guy has trained and practiced with speed shooting bolt actions. He's really good at it, the average Joe is going to be far behind him.

The average guy has never been taught how, much less practices it. One should be able to have a bolt gun ready to fire again when the barrel gets back down on target. It's not real hard with some practice.

 

[Walkalong]

Not picking on you, promise.

 

[1KPerDay]

Or with a 1x scope.

Uh, thought you were advocating irons. Not scopes.

 

[taliv]

Practical shooting requirements are determined by the target. How fast do you need to hit it before it disappears or shoots back at you? How small is it?

The requirements rarely change based on the action you choose. The action you choose, along with stock sights barrel caliber etc can make it easier or harder to meet the requirements depending...

 

[Kendal Black]

The scout rifle concept is all about getting first round hits promptly in conditions that are likely to be encountered afield. The rifle's performance on long strings of fire is thus of minor interest or concern. What is much more important is the handiness of the whole setup, and in particular the speed and convenience the rifle offers you in taking suitable aim from a hurridly acquired firing position.

There are many jobs iron sights can do well enough. It is not strictly necessary, per the definition, for a scout to have an optical sight.

 

[TTv2]

Uh, thought you were advocating irons. Not scopes.

Either or. I would rather put a 1x scope on a bolt gun instead for better precision and cuz I got the astigmatism.

 

[Chuck R.]

3 Gun match yesterday, a lot of up close targets.

The majority of my squad were running LPVs, only 2 guys with RDS. Other than our 1st stage which had 200y shots, followed by 100y shots on small steel, every other tgt was well withing 50ys. I'd think that IF a RDS was that much faster, it would be the other way around, with the majority shooting RDS.

One of the RDS guys is a good friend of mine that's working on a dedicated 3Gun build that will wear a LPV when done.

 

[ATLDave]

Chuck, I think you are drawing the wrong inferences. Most 3Gun rule sets allow only a single optic on rifles outside Open (or whatever their least-restrictive division is). Thus, competitors have to choose something that will work across the full range of challenges that they will encounter. They are forced by the rules to compromise. Under those constraints, a variable power scope with a 1x bottom end and an illuminated reticle is the best compromise.

In contrast, in divisions where multiple optics are allowed, most competitors will opt for a higher-powered scope (3-12 is common) with a red-dot mounted on a 45 degree mount. The dot is used for faster/closer work, with the scope used for longer shots. This is a significant enough advantage that most rule sets will bump the shooter to open just for adding the RD without removing the scope.

As to your specific match, with relatively few long shots, there are two reasons that still doesn’t indicate the superiority of the low-power scope for short stuff versus RD. First, few competitors are going to switch optics for a single club match, what with the need to re-zero. Second, must 3Gun rules run on a time-plus scoring basis. In general, under time plus, it makes sense to gear up for the hardest shot you will face and make do on all the easier shots.

I have a couple of rifles that I have used for practical competitors. One has a dot, one has a decent low power scope. There’s no doubt the dot is a touch faster on the close stuff. No fisheye, more forgiving of head positioning. There’s also no doubt those tradeoffs are outweighed once any shots past 30 yards are involved in the course of fire.

Finally, I would add the the low-powered scopes are materially heavier than RD’s. I don’t really have an opinion about the actual utility of Cooper’s scout rifle concept. I don’t have one, have no plans to get or build one. I don’t do much hunting and have almost no chance of ever needing to take a snap-shot with a rifle when cresting a ridge. BUT, low weight seems to be a big part of the concept, and the RD is much lighter than most low power scopes.

 

[Chuck R.]

ATL Dave,

Very good points.

It might well be a range specific thing, cause I'm not seeing anybody with that large of a variable, and the majority of LPV shooters I see are; 1-X guys, some with iron offsets. It could well be because the longest we go out to normally is 300y and the target size is still reasonable for the RDS folks.

Don't know about the need to re-zero as long as you've got decent mounts. I swap back n forth between an RDS and a scope pretty frequently, and the most I pick up is about .5MOA.

 

[ATLDave]

The way most 3G rule sets work is that your most advanced/advantaged gear will set the division for you across the board. In other words, if you stick a RDS on a cantilever mount next to a scope on your AR, you are suddenly competing against the guys who have race gun pistols with dots and compensators and the (same) guys who have Saiga shotguns, etc. So, in order to go for the RD/scope combo, you really have to go all-out on all your gear across the board. That $200 dot on a $30 cantilever mount can cost you 6-10 grand really fast!

 

[Kendal Black]

The lessons we can learn from running-and-gunning contests will certainly be relevant, but not directly so. The role of the scout rifle is different enough that we must read between the lines in drawing conclusions, remembering that what is really prized is the first round hit, not strings of fire.

Something that occurs to me as important from merely a mechanical standpoint is that reflex sights can be very small. Some are small enough to mount on just the forward piece of a two-piece scope base. That is a very convenient way to add an optic to an iron sighted rifle. I am currently pondering a box of Remington 700 pieces that I think are going to end up as a rifle with peep iron sights (protected forward post) and an Aimpoint Micro or something similar perched atop the receiver ring.

...low weight seems to be a big part of the concept, and the RD is much lighter than most low power scopes.

Potentially smaller too! The Leupold Prismatic was an appealingly small telescope but didn't get the following it needed to be viable commercially.

 

[taliv]

The lessons we can learn from running-and-gunning contests will certainly be relevant, but not directly so. The role of the scout rifle is different enough that we must read between the lines in drawing conclusions, remembering that what is really prized is the first round hit, not strings of fire.

View attachment 799171

On what basis do you think strings of fire are not important?
If you’re hunting, one round may be enough. But how often are the mythological scout military encounters solved with one round? Did Cooper envision getting all the opposing forces to stand in a line so your excessive cartridge could overpenetrate and hit them all with one round?

 

[Kendal Black]

On what basis do you think strings of fire are not important?
If you’re hunting, one round may be enough. But how often are the mythological scout military encounters solved with one round? Did Cooper envision getting all the opposing forces to stand in a line so your excessive cartridge could overpenetrate and hit them all with one round?

It was never envisioned that a first round hit would address multiple targets with one shot. That would be asking a bit much even from a scout rifle. If you want to shoot more than one target, you are going to need more than one shot. It is well if they are first round hits, on each.

 

[Gordon]

Col Cooper could really run the bolt on his Scouts, I'll testify ! He was consistent like a machine too . That would be 3 to five K hits on a Target up to 3oo meters from knelling slung mostly. Then (as now) the idea is to di di mau len to cover and concealment as far as you can get before counter fire is brought to bear on your former position That was and is the parameters of the "Scout Rifle" . Hence when I first saw the logic of it (with a 2.5x Leupold LEER and co witnessed ghost rings which were fabricated) I had Chet Brown build me a couple over a five year period 1979-1984 in his San Jose Garage. The first was a Remington 600 18" soda straw .308 with trued action , tuned trigger , custom welded up bolt handle , custom left hand mauser type bolt release glued into a High Country Stock = 6 pounds without Buehler Scope mount and (who had available peep for rear QD ring) and Leupold 2.5x LEER and Ching Sling.. Next rifle in 1984 was same but quadra ported, larger area flared recoil pad Kevlar stock material Shilen #1 20" barrel and some lightening of the 600 Mohawk reciever by machining and a custom bolt handle on the original 600 dog leg bolt handle tat was reweld back to reciever. This rifle was 5 pounds 3 .oz with it's aluminum QD Weaver style custom mount system shrunk and glued around barrel shank which was turned to fit. It had a fabricated pop up reciever site at rear of bolt bridge and stripper clip cut reciever . I used a Burris variable handgun scope on it which just came out by the time I got the gun up and running .

 

[Elkins45]

I didn't name it because I have not shot it enough to form a solid opinion. It is the HoloSun HS403c. the reviews online seem fairly positive. I have it on a "braced" CZ Scorpion EVO 3 S1. This is a very lite recoiling arm; so I cannot say how it would do on anything else. As far as the basic features (being on whenever I pick it up, and staying zeroed), it seems to work well.
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image from here

Just as a comment, while I posted a link to the official site, if you do a search, you will find it for a lot less elsewhere. It ships with a high and low riser. The low riser is better for the CZ Scorpion. The tall riser is best for the AR.

This is the sight the InRange guys picked for their What Would Stoner Do Rifle IIRC.

For a pistol I would agree, but for a rifle I don't see how a 1x on a BOLT ACTION rifle is better than a set of good iron sights.

If you needed reading glasses you would understand. The scope puts the target and the aiming point in the same focal plane, and to those of us who have lost our close focusing ability it is a significant issue.

 

[jmorris]

I have a number of different “red dot” sights and they are not all created equal.

Some of the quickest to acquire also have a dot so large they can obstruct some targets at distance.



But you can get different dot sizes to counter this.



But while a bit faster a variable 1-something optic can be quick to acquire the target and allow you to get better resolution, if you have the time.



As far as red dots go though I really like the small dot Aimpoint “comp” line and can shoot sub 2 MOA groups with the 2 MOA comp 3 (with a rifle that will shoot better with more precise optics).

I use an Acog reflex more than any other though because it’s always “on” and self adjusting to ambient light.

 

[sean m]

As everyone knows, red dots are superior to aperture sights in low light. I've personally wanted a 3x prism red dot on a low mount for some time, but alas that is really the world of ARs. Due to that, the illuminated dot/reticle low power variable scope is certainly the able successor to a red dot with swing away magnifier.

As far as "scout" type red dot usage, I've tried it. It works just fine, but lacking magnification is a problem with a bolt gun not used as a CQB auto-loading carbine, IMO.

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View attachment 797800

What rifle is that? I'm not recognizing the profile.

 

[chicharrones]

What rifle is that? I'm not recognizing the profile.

A Zastava MP22 in .22 WMR that I shortened by nearly 6" a couple years ago. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/rimfire-scout-rifle.818883/

 

[MistWolf]

Red dot sights have the same magnification as iron sights.

I've never been a fan of extended eye relief scopes. The eye box is too unforgiving for fast shooting.

I just put a 1.25-4x Leupold with an illuminated reticle on an AR. I haven't shot it yet, but during dry fire it's pretty quick to get on target.

 

[Hasaf]

In this thread I mentioned having a Holosun HS403C. I have now had it long enough to form an opinion. I am recommending a strong "Don't Buy."

It worked well for a while, then the auto-on stopped working. Using it without the auto-on is very clumsy, as it was not designed to work manually. I accidentally contacted Holosun-Canada. They were quick to respond with a suggestion (that didn't work). However, they stated that I needed to contact Holosun-USA. I wrote Holosun-USA and have never gotten a response.

At this point the HS403C has been delegated to a desk drawer for things that don't work, but I am not ready to throw out yet. As far as the warranty, it doesn't matter what the warranty is if the manufacturer ignores attempts to contact.

 

[DannyLandrum]

For me, it's pretty simple.....

Batteries: Homey don't play dat.

Unless it's an optic that will continue to have an aiming point with TU batts (Leupold Prismatic, Trijicon RMR-DI, Burris MTAC, etc).

Reason is that Murphy tends to follow me around more than most people.... And hunting is my main thing, often in sub 25 F weather.

 

[jmorris]

I am with you, kind of like lots of electronic devices you don't use often the batteries die or more importantly go unmaintained or replaced.

Riding lawn mowers, boats and motorcycles in the winter and such.

There are some that offer both of best worlds from the fiber optic/tritium end to the illuminated reticle like the nightforce NXS, that can use power to be like a red dot or be a regular optic if you run out of juice.

If there was a “best answer” there would the any choices. No seat fits all butts’...,

 

[crestoncowboy]

Depends upon the decade I'm sure.

 

[Kendal Black]

I do not object to electrically powered gunsights so long as there is some or other backup available. The classic scout rifle recipe calls for ghost ring iron sights, whether or not an optic is fitted.