history repeats itself

[TexasRifleman]

or for that matter the irsih who were neutral and in reallity aided the germans.

OK I'll play

Fact: (They say Irelands president here but that part is not true)

Ireland's president during World War II offered condolences to Nazi Germany over the 1945 death of Adolf Hitler, newly declassified government records show. Historians had believed that Ireland's prime minister at the time, Eamon de Valera, was the only government leader to convey official condolences to Eduard Hempel, director of the German diplomatic corps in Ireland. De Valera's gesture -- unique among leaders of neutral nations in the final weeks of WWII -- was criticized worldwide.

Fact:

Churchill did believe there was collusion because during the Blitz while London was dark, Ireland "blazed with light".

Technically however Ireland was a neutral country in WWII.

The fact is that German papers captured after the war show at least 2 plans to invade Ireland.

Operation Kathleen, proposed by the IRA to the Germans in 1940 and rejected as being the work of fantasists. Operation Green (yes – same name as the proposed invasion of Czechoslovakia) which was a German idea involving invading both the Republic and NI, as a diversion to operation Sealion, the invasion of Britain.

Ireland during WWII was technicall part of the British Commonwealth and was split into 2 pieces; Éire and Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland was fully involved in the Allied effort, sending over 37,000 to the British Armed Forces.

Of course the nice IRA made plenty of overtures to Hitler, but that's hardly an indictment of the Irish government at the time.

 

[foob]

Back then there was still pressure to assimilate.
Now we have "Press 1 for English"

Different times, different attitudes.

Different end result, most likely.

Legal immigration is extremely limited now. Which is why you won't see a boatload of immigrants from Europe, Asia, or Africa. Most new immigrants are illegals that can cross more easily by land.

If digital phones, "customer service", and computers were as prevalent as they are now, then there would probably have been "Press 2 for Italian". It's a lot cheaper now than before to provide services in different languages.

I'm pretty sure there were Chinese signs in Chinatown, Korean signs in Koreatown, and Italian signs in Italian neighborhoods, etc, in the 1900s for people who only spoke their languages. If substantial number of Spanish-only-speaking people are going to use customer service, then companies will provide Spanish service too.

Why is assimilation the right thing? I thought this country still values the right to be free. I thought being different doesn't mean being wrong. Crime = bad, MS-13 = bad, illegally crossing the border = bad, but mexican culture = bad?

Why are you so afraid?

My suggestion? You want to live in America? Do something to earn it. If you are illegal, and you want to be naturalized, you should have to do something for us, not to send you back. Offer them a deal. Make them earn it.

Bluntly speaking, the issue is that there is a segment of society that is xenophobic. These people don't want to offer a deal, they want them out of the country. They may hide their intent with things like "they are criminals because they crossed illegally, offer no amnesty", but make no mistake, they would never favor increasing legal immigration with conditions/deals attached for South Americans that haven't crossed illegally, but want to find work here.

This is human nature, nature to identify oneself to particular groups and exclude people whom one does not view as similar. It's a problem for all races, cultures, and nationalities to deal with.

 

[TexasRifleman]

mexican culture = bad?

Why is this continually brought up as the argument?

No one has a problem with Mexican culture as long as it does not seek to destroy or surplant what's already existing here.

I am pretty sure there was no Italian or Irish equivalent of Reconquista.

 

[foob]

Why is this continually brought up as the argument?

No one has a problem with Mexican culture as long as it does not seek to destroy or surplant what's already existing here.

I am pretty sure there was no Italian or Irish equivalent of Reconquista.

You truly believe that Mexican culture can somehow destroy or surplant existing culture here?

Please give some examples of how this will occur and the results.

Just throwing it out, McDonalds going bankrupt and replaced with Taco Bells? Tequila being the most popular alcoholic beverage? All road signs in Spanish instead? Cheesy Mexican-styled weddings? Catholicism being the number one religion? Hip Hop and Pop going out of style and replaced with whatever Mexicans listen to?

Unfortunately for your argument, I am pretty sure there was no Mexican equivalent of Reconquista.

 

[JCF]

Quote:
mexican culture = bad?

Why is this continually brought up as the argument?

No one has a problem with Mexican culture as long as it does not seek to destroy or surplant what's already existing here.

Well... I think that was the point actually. The thread began with a mod's comment regarding the lack of need for assimilation among contemporary immigrants.

 

[JCF]

You truly believe that Mexican culture can somehow destroy or surplant existing culture here?

The idea is pretty much absurd. Anyone who has travelled beyond the borders of this country is liable to observe that in fact American culture is that which is infiltrating virtually every corner of the globe.

 

[TexasRifleman]

You truly believe that Mexican culture can somehow destroy or surplant existing culture here?

Of course not, but that does not stop MANY illegal (and a few legal) immigrants from believe it can and behaving accordingly.

The OP was using Irish and Italian immigrants as an example of history repeating itself.

That is not the case however. Look back to those days at photos of those immigrants.

They were not lining the streets in NY and Chicago waving Irish and Italian flags, they were waving flags of they USA, their new country.

The high number of illegal immigrants from Mexico shows a general disdain for the sovreignty of the USA and that is why a good number of illegally entering here display little support or loyalty to their new home. It's just a place to get a job and some medical care.
I don't blame them a bit for WANTING to come here, I blame our government for ALLOWING it.

Do not forget that we are talking of 2 VERY different groups here; LEGAL immigrants and criminals that sneak over the border.

There is a HUGE difference.

 

[JCF]

Of course not, but that does not stop MANY illegal (and a few legal) immigrants from believe it can and behaving accordingly.

The OP was using Irish and Italian immigrants as an example of history repeating itself.

http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2253/The_New_York_Draft_riots_occur


And by the way... ALL aspects of history tend to repeat. Including denial:

http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm

 

[Kaylee]

its so simple for white folks to use a color bar to pass judgement. shame about those 3000 chinese interned but hey they all looked alike.

May I suggest doublechecking one's facts before making an argument?

It was the Japanese we interned (seeing as how we were at war with the Japanese gov't at the time, and (rightly or wrongly) feared collaborators hidden in their numbers.. along with smaller numbers of Germans and Italians for the same reason. (Many more Italians at least were "encouraged" to move inland)

Of those interned:
Japanese: approx 110K
German descent: approx 11K
Italian descent: approx 1K

Italians forced to move: approx 10K
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/itintern.htm



Yeah, contemporary racism may have played a roll in the different internment numbers, though I suspect less integration time and a higher language barrier played a bigger role. And the little fact that the Japanese were the only ones to get as far as actually attacking us on US soil.






Yup, it's just racism, pure and simple.

-K

 

[pacodelahoya]

CFreisen, please show me how an article about a riot caused by whites who didn't particulary want to get drafted and DIE for the beliefs of a president during the civil war is germaine to the topic of illegal immigration today?

I am just not getting it.

If I posted an article about the Rodney King riot, would that help my argument?

 

[Kaylee]

Further...

no, mexican culture does not necessarily = bad.

Some parts, yes, bad* However, many parts good. Just like most all cultures.

However, cultural balkanization is VERY MUCH bad.

There is a difference.

-K

(and what all those other folks said about that pesky "illegal" part of "illegal alien" )



*There's no reason other than culture that Mexico shouldn't be just as much a place for opportunity as the US... they have a great number of natural resources, but a sucky economic system. That's something we import at our great peril.

 

[JCF]

CFreisen, please show me how an article about a riot caused by whites who didn't particulary want to get drafted and DIE for the beliefs of a president during the civil war is germaine to the topic of illegal immigration today?

I am just not getting it.

If I posted an article about the Rodney King riot, would that help my argument?

In response to TexasRifleman's posts, I am pointing out that there did in fact exist civil unrest and political dissent among new Irish immigrants.

 

[foob]

However, cultural balkanization is VERY MUCH bad.

I believe the problem is largely imaginary. Consider Chinatown, Koreantown, and other culture-specific neighborhoods. They have largely become irrelevant and are just tourist attractions and a place for people to go find ethnic food.

As someone mentioned earlier, the descendents of first generation immigrants have always integrated into mainstream culture. It is near impossible for a culture to resist mainstream infiltration. Any interaction between cultures furthers the homogenisation of cultures.

May I suggest doublechecking one's facts before making an argument?

I think he meant that Chinese were accidentally interned because they were mistaken as Japanese.
No clue where he got that idea from, I can't find any info on the net.

 

[Kaylee]

I believe the problem is largely imaginary. Consider Chinatown, Koreantown, and other culture-specific neighborhoods.

Walking into a few square blocks of one city and ordering Peking Duck to go (in English) is far, far cry from one major company after another and our own gov't making it easy to remain culturally and linguistically isolated from the rest of the country.

Any interaction between cultures furthers the homogenisation of cultures.

Precisely why accomodation (all commerical help in Spanish, gov't forms in Spanish, teaching in Spanish, etc etc) is such a bad idea. If there is no strong pressure to acculturate, you create a permanent underclass isolated by their own culture and language barrier. That is not something that bodes well for the future of the country.

A culture that is isolated unto itself rather than a part of the dominant culture, and feels kept down economically will eventually become militant. It'd be like the feared slave revolts of the pre-Civil War era. And that's just how much it sucks for America. It sucks worse to be a member of said underclass.

-K

*the other side effect of a largee illegal population is how easy it becomes to put all sorts of pressure on the employee to accept slave-level wages and bad treatment

 

[JCF]

Precisely why accomodation (all commerical help in Spanish, gov't forms in Spanish, teaching in Spanish, etc etc) is such a bad idea. If there is no strong pressure to acculturate, you create a permanent underclass isolated by their own isolated culture and language barrier. That is not something that bodes well for the future of the country.

I'm going to agree with you on this in principle.

However I think that folks are getting somewhat hung up on the bilingual telephone prompts, etc. Consider if you will that Spanish services have been available collaterally in the southern portion of this country for at least 20 years in most essential services. They were set up in response to the prevalence of mexican immigrants. Yet the emergent generation has hardly been isolated, and they did not occupy an underclass for much beyond the emigrating generation. Advertisers are recognizing hispanics as one of the fastest growing market groups in the country; they are purchasing homes and cars at an unprecedented rate. The idea that hispanics are not assimilating beyond the first (emigrating) generation is thoroughly baseless.

 

[Ian]

I always have to wonder when this topic comes up. First, if people are upset about immigrants leeching off welfare programs, there are TWO solutions. One is to build the Berlin wall along the Rio Grande. The other is to reduce or eliminate the welfare programs. Ignoring the fact that "sealing the border" is a laughable fantasy, why is it that so many theoretically conservative folks don't jump at the idea of eliminating all these "free" services provided to deadbeats of all colors with tax money?

In addition, the idea that legal immigration status means anything about a person seems irrational to me. It just means one person went through a pile of bureaucratic red tape and the other person didn't. Doesn't say anything about motives, skills, or what that person will contribute to their community in the US. if you were in serious financial trouble here and you saw opportunity to better yourself and your family in Mexico, would you really be all that concerned with the Mexican government's paperwork?

Frankly, given the work ethic of the Mexicans I work with on a daily basis, I think perhaps some of their influence could do a lot of Americans some good.

 

[foob]

In addition, the idea that legal immigration status means anything about a person seems irrational to me. It just means one person went through a pile of bureaucratic red tape and the other person didn't. Doesn't say anything about motives, skills, or what that person will contribute to their community in the US. if you were in serious financial trouble here and you saw opportunity to better yourself and your family in Mexico, would you really be all that concerned with the Mexican government's paperwork?

I wanted to say that, but didn't know how to phrase it properly. +1.

 

[pacodelahoya]

Yea, all those pesky hoops, like ccw permits, drivers licenses,building permits, pilots licenses and stuff.

Dude, I am all for eliminating welfare. However, the politicians that are elected by the leeches that use all the social programs are not.

 

[lamazza]

Both sides of my family immigrated legally from Italy and they are more patriotic than most of the americans that have been here for many generations-the same goes for their italian friends. I can't say the same about about 80% of the immigrants legal/illegal that I meet daily.

 

[foob]

Just like I'm wary of religious folk that wear their religion on their lips, I'm wary of patriotic folk that wear their patriotism on their lips*.

*and on their cars, houses, clothes, and other belongings.

P.S. What's the best way to show patriotism? Am I automatically disqualified if I don't have a magnetic yellow ribbon? Can I criticize the President?

 

[pacodelahoya]

Foob, so in other words, you are prejudiced against people who display their patriotism?

Much like those nice folks who marched in Calfornia and carried all of those La Raza signs and Mexican flags huh?

So why is that it's ok for you to not like it but not ok for the rest of us?

 

[foob]

Huh, no I'm wary of their intentions. Kind of like being wary of a politician who panders to a group of people to gain their votes. Are they actually patriotic, or a terrorist pretending to be patriotic?

A little confused by the rest of your post. I never said it's not ok to show your patriotism. Just said I'm not going to think you are patriotic just because you display a $1 magnetic yellow ribbon on your car. And I'm not going to think of you as less patriotic if you drive a Japanese or German car.

 

[pacodelahoya]

And Foob, I love the ideals that this country was founded on, personal freedoms and opportunity for all. I truly despise what our gov. has become. I despise the lazy welfare mongers, drug addicts and baby mommas and daddies. This country is not about borders, race,or religion. It's about ideals and personal responsibilty. These people have marched in this country and want to make it into Mexico. I know you have seen the videos and photos.

 

[pacodelahoya]

What's confusing about the fact you are wary of Americans who say they love their country but think it is ok for people who march here to advocate the annexing of much of the southwest to Mexico while proclaiming to be of La Raza(the race) and carrying Mexican flags ok?

Sounds like double standards to me.

 

[rbernie]

if you were in serious financial trouble here and you saw opportunity to better yourself and your family in Mexico, would you really be all that concerned with the Mexican government's paperwork?

All I ask of my neighbors is three things: pay your taxes, respect the property rights of those around you, and conduct your public affairs in English. Other than that, I don't care who you are or what you do.

If you can't do those three simple things, I've got no good use for you.