Barry in IN
Member
I finally got one about a year ago, a P7M8.
I heard of the PSP/P7 in 1981, and wanted to try one out. Well, I waited 22 years, and nobody I knew ever got one, so I had to do it myself.
I'm a confirmed Browning HiPower fan, but like and use Sigs and 1911s (Commander size in particular) some also. Until the P7, the gun I carried 90% of the time was a HiPower. It's probably 50-50 between the HiPower and the P7 now.
PRO-
1. Safety- Of course you hear the squeeze-cock mentioned for that, but also of signifigance is that the striker/firing pin/spring comes out, and back in, in about 3 seconds. I have small kids, and while I take the "standard precautions", it's nice to be able to deactive the gun in no time if I should have to take it off in a hurry.
Back to the squeezing-The squeeze-cocking mechanism is probably impossible for them to activate by hand for a few years yet, but that can be done with effort by pushing it against a countertop or similar.
2. You shoot, it hits- This is a combination of things- trigger, grip angle, sights, etc, but it is just an easy gun for people to shoot well.
3. Shoots "fast"- Another combination of features. The gas retarding action, low bore axis, grip angle, etc, makes it an easy gun to shoot AND HIT WITH fast.
The recoil seems less than any other 9mm I've shot (BHP, Sig 225, 226,228, CZ, Beretta, Glock, on and on).
The slide cycles very fast.
Very little muzzle flip. The only thing I've shot with less would be three IPSC Open Class 38 Super "race guns". and really, the P7 doesn't seem far behind them.
4. Slim/flat- Like a 1911, it's one of the thinnest guns out there. Very easy to carry in an Inside Waistband holster for that reason. I don't usually like Kydex for IWB holsters because they don't have "give" to help them conform to you. But, among other holsters, I have a Blade-Tech IWB for the P7 that works just fine thanks to the P7 being flat to begin with.
5. Barrel length/size ratio- It's chunky little subcompact-size gun, but has a 4-1/8" barrel, instead of the 3, or 3-1/2" of most pistols it's size. I feel comfortable with the 9mm round, +P loads in particular, but believe the 9mm needs all the speed it can get. I feel better with as long a barrel as I can get or carry in 9mm.
CONS (with my defense of them thrown in)-
1. Price- They are just too damned expensive. I don't care how much money I ever have, if I think the gun should cost a lot less to make, it should sell for a lot less. I don't see why it shouldn't sell for $700-800 instead of $1400 retail, but I'm not the one making them.
That said, I got mine used, in a trade, and think it's worth every penny of what I have in it. I've seen many used ones for well under $1000, that were like new. I think that compares pretty well to the NEW prices of most of the better non-custom 1911s; and "premium" service-type autos like Sigs for example.
2. Heavy- It's a steel frame gun. And that's how it is. So what if it weighs more than a Glock that I can't shoot as well? If it shoots well, and I can hide it, I'm carrying it.
I've been off work for three years with a back injury. I'll never work again. Surgeries have allowed me to get out of bed without yelling, and scaring the kids. The weight of anything is of great importance to me. Yet I'm not going to carry something else unless I can shoot it better.
3. Finish- The blued finish, which was how guns were when it came out, is pretty weak. It wears fast, then rusts.
I've seen pics of new ones that have HK's Hostile Enviroment (HE) finish. That should fix it. I just found a place (www.ccr-refinishing.net) that does KG Gunkote for $109. I think they will be seeing mine soon.
4.Complexity- They are, and they aren't. The squeeze-cocking mechanism has plenty of springs and catches, and trips, and so on. But, the only parts I've heard of failing are the bushing that surrounds the striker at the rear of the slide, the drop safety catch, and it's spring. I did a search on the P7 forum when I got mine, and that's what I found. The question "what has broken" gets posted there fairly often, and the answers are what I just mentioned, and not many of them. We fans of trhe P7 like to point out that it can operate without the extractor installed. Never having an extractor failure in any quality pistol, I'm not sure what that shows other than it can operate wiythout an extractor. But it is a cool demo for your pals!
Up front, the P7 is less complex than most pistols. There is the slide, with the gas piston pinned to it, and recoil spring. There is no barrel bushing, seperate guide rod or guide rod system, barrel link and pin, slide stop pin, and maybe more parts I'm not thinking of. Those are fairly substantial parts on most other guns, and not prone to breakage as a habit. But they do fail on occasion. Bushings crack, pins break, etc. Again, not often, perhaps a little less often as the three parts I named that break on P7s?
I've broken lots of guns. Even "Glock perfection" (more than once), but haven't broken anything on the P7 yet. If I do, I'll re-evaluate.
5. They get dirty fast- Well, yes. But it hasn't caused me any problems. The gas retarded blowback system taps gas through a hole forward of the chamber, into a "cylinder" bored in the frame under the barrel. The piston attached to the slide at the front is held/slowed by this gas pressure, keeping the slide from coming back too far, too fast. You're essentially firing the powder down the barrel and the gas cylinder both, and that does blow some crud around. By design, some gas will escape around the piston, blowing crud out under and around the barrel.
I have heard people say they got "too dirty to run" in the course of a range session. I don't know how many rounds this takes. I seldom fire over 100 rounds at a session, 150 at the most, and have not had any trouble.
6. They get hot. They do get hot under the gas cylinder after say, 50 quick shots. But I have only gotten nipped by it once, when I forgot, and grabbed it stupidly with my support hand.
If you have thick fingers it might get your trigger finger.
Or, if you use a "finger-forward" hold, with your support hand index finger hooked around the front of the trigger guard, it might get you then.
Otherwise, using most any standard hold, or doing malfunction-clearing practice, I don't see it being a problem.
I liken it to the exposed barrel of a revolver, and nobody complained of them doing it for 150 years.
7. Low magazine capacity- Eight rounds of 9mm. Not much nowadays. But it's a tradeoff for a slim grip. I like Sig P225s for their grip size and shape- eight rounds also. That's part of it. I'm fine with it. If you need more, find a P7M13 with 13 round capacity. Of course, the slimness factor gets blown to bits.
To the good, a few of those thin spare magazines can be carried without noticing them.
8.Limited holster choices- You can't go to the mega-gunshop, and grab a Bianchi or Galco off the rack for a P7.
I admit it, I'm a leather snob. So if I have to get some Alessi, Sparks, or DelFatti leather for it, it's a good thing.
Other holster makers I know of are Ted Blocker, Blade-Tech, and I think Cen-Dex. Holsters are available, just not usually around the corner.
9. No cast bullets- Because of the gas port spewing lead fragments and bullet lube into the works, gumming up the piston, you can't use cast bullets. I don't care. Non-issue.
10. Spontanious disassembly- Supposedly, if you do it just right, this could happen: with an overhand grasp (as opposed to a "slingshot" grasp) of the slide, racking it as if clearing a malfunction, you can press in on the takedown button, and come up with the slide in one hand and frame in the other.
Some early versions had a more protruding takedown button. Mine has a sort-of in between type of button, before HK beveled one side to make it less of a possibility.
With mine, I TRIED to do this feat, and could not. Oh, I could make it happen if I went REAL slow, making sure I pressed it in all the way, and worked the slide just right, while pulling upward on it at the same time.
If you have one with a button that lets this happen, then just grind it down a little to shorten it. Maybe even to the point that it's flush, and you need to push it in with the tip of a pen.
It probably needs refinished anyway!
PRO AND CON, or, UNDECIDED-
1. Unique manual of arms- I had always heard that if you are going to carry a P7, carry only a P7. And it made perfect sense.
Now that I have one, I don't know about that. Of course, the "problem" is that you could switch to the P7 after carrying something else, forget, draw it when you NEED it, without squeezing it to cock it.
Now that I have one, the question is- How do you aquire a firing grip on a handgun without squeezing it?
When my hand grips the the P7, or any handgun, I take a reasonably firm grip. On the P7, when you squeeze, it gives. Naturally, I squeeze harder.
I think the "problem" solves itself.
2.Magazine release type and location- On the P7M8, it is the ambi, push-down lever behind and around the trigger guard type that HK uses on the USP now, and Walther uses on the P99.
Bad- If you carry without a holster, shoving the gun in your belt or waistband, the release will get tripped, and the magazine shoots out.
Good- You will use a holster like you should. I used to go without sometimes, even though I knew better. The P7 keeps me honest.
Good- It's fast and easy. I like it better than the "normal" type. I use my trigger finger, and don't shift my grip.
I like it, you may not.
Overall, I think the plusses outweigh the minuses. The plusses are big, the minuses are small.
Basically, when I shoot it, it hits. There are different kinds of accuracy. The first is how well it shoots groups. Another one is how easy or hard it is to make use of the first.
HK P7s shoot good groups, fast, and they let you use that capability.
On the bad side,
They cost a lot (what's it worth to be a better shooter- at least better than an attacker- trade two guns in on it since you probably won't shoot them after getting the P7 anyway).
Heavy (for it's size, not heavy for a gun).
The finish is poor (refinish when it wears, unless you find a new one with the HE finish).
It's complex in places (but hasn't broke yet).
It gets dirty and hot after 50 rounds(avoid 50 round gunfights).
I can only shoot nine times before reloading(big deal).
I had to get nice holsters.
I can't use cast bullets in a caliber that I don't use them in anyway.
Finally, some people, not me, have it come apart when clearing malfunctions that I haven't yet had happen.
I'd reccomend them to anyone, but you really should shoot one before you decide.
I heard of the PSP/P7 in 1981, and wanted to try one out. Well, I waited 22 years, and nobody I knew ever got one, so I had to do it myself.
I'm a confirmed Browning HiPower fan, but like and use Sigs and 1911s (Commander size in particular) some also. Until the P7, the gun I carried 90% of the time was a HiPower. It's probably 50-50 between the HiPower and the P7 now.
PRO-
1. Safety- Of course you hear the squeeze-cock mentioned for that, but also of signifigance is that the striker/firing pin/spring comes out, and back in, in about 3 seconds. I have small kids, and while I take the "standard precautions", it's nice to be able to deactive the gun in no time if I should have to take it off in a hurry.
Back to the squeezing-The squeeze-cocking mechanism is probably impossible for them to activate by hand for a few years yet, but that can be done with effort by pushing it against a countertop or similar.
2. You shoot, it hits- This is a combination of things- trigger, grip angle, sights, etc, but it is just an easy gun for people to shoot well.
3. Shoots "fast"- Another combination of features. The gas retarding action, low bore axis, grip angle, etc, makes it an easy gun to shoot AND HIT WITH fast.
The recoil seems less than any other 9mm I've shot (BHP, Sig 225, 226,228, CZ, Beretta, Glock, on and on).
The slide cycles very fast.
Very little muzzle flip. The only thing I've shot with less would be three IPSC Open Class 38 Super "race guns". and really, the P7 doesn't seem far behind them.
4. Slim/flat- Like a 1911, it's one of the thinnest guns out there. Very easy to carry in an Inside Waistband holster for that reason. I don't usually like Kydex for IWB holsters because they don't have "give" to help them conform to you. But, among other holsters, I have a Blade-Tech IWB for the P7 that works just fine thanks to the P7 being flat to begin with.
5. Barrel length/size ratio- It's chunky little subcompact-size gun, but has a 4-1/8" barrel, instead of the 3, or 3-1/2" of most pistols it's size. I feel comfortable with the 9mm round, +P loads in particular, but believe the 9mm needs all the speed it can get. I feel better with as long a barrel as I can get or carry in 9mm.
CONS (with my defense of them thrown in)-
1. Price- They are just too damned expensive. I don't care how much money I ever have, if I think the gun should cost a lot less to make, it should sell for a lot less. I don't see why it shouldn't sell for $700-800 instead of $1400 retail, but I'm not the one making them.
That said, I got mine used, in a trade, and think it's worth every penny of what I have in it. I've seen many used ones for well under $1000, that were like new. I think that compares pretty well to the NEW prices of most of the better non-custom 1911s; and "premium" service-type autos like Sigs for example.
2. Heavy- It's a steel frame gun. And that's how it is. So what if it weighs more than a Glock that I can't shoot as well? If it shoots well, and I can hide it, I'm carrying it.
I've been off work for three years with a back injury. I'll never work again. Surgeries have allowed me to get out of bed without yelling, and scaring the kids. The weight of anything is of great importance to me. Yet I'm not going to carry something else unless I can shoot it better.
3. Finish- The blued finish, which was how guns were when it came out, is pretty weak. It wears fast, then rusts.
I've seen pics of new ones that have HK's Hostile Enviroment (HE) finish. That should fix it. I just found a place (www.ccr-refinishing.net) that does KG Gunkote for $109. I think they will be seeing mine soon.
4.Complexity- They are, and they aren't. The squeeze-cocking mechanism has plenty of springs and catches, and trips, and so on. But, the only parts I've heard of failing are the bushing that surrounds the striker at the rear of the slide, the drop safety catch, and it's spring. I did a search on the P7 forum when I got mine, and that's what I found. The question "what has broken" gets posted there fairly often, and the answers are what I just mentioned, and not many of them. We fans of trhe P7 like to point out that it can operate without the extractor installed. Never having an extractor failure in any quality pistol, I'm not sure what that shows other than it can operate wiythout an extractor. But it is a cool demo for your pals!
Up front, the P7 is less complex than most pistols. There is the slide, with the gas piston pinned to it, and recoil spring. There is no barrel bushing, seperate guide rod or guide rod system, barrel link and pin, slide stop pin, and maybe more parts I'm not thinking of. Those are fairly substantial parts on most other guns, and not prone to breakage as a habit. But they do fail on occasion. Bushings crack, pins break, etc. Again, not often, perhaps a little less often as the three parts I named that break on P7s?
I've broken lots of guns. Even "Glock perfection" (more than once), but haven't broken anything on the P7 yet. If I do, I'll re-evaluate.
5. They get dirty fast- Well, yes. But it hasn't caused me any problems. The gas retarded blowback system taps gas through a hole forward of the chamber, into a "cylinder" bored in the frame under the barrel. The piston attached to the slide at the front is held/slowed by this gas pressure, keeping the slide from coming back too far, too fast. You're essentially firing the powder down the barrel and the gas cylinder both, and that does blow some crud around. By design, some gas will escape around the piston, blowing crud out under and around the barrel.
I have heard people say they got "too dirty to run" in the course of a range session. I don't know how many rounds this takes. I seldom fire over 100 rounds at a session, 150 at the most, and have not had any trouble.
6. They get hot. They do get hot under the gas cylinder after say, 50 quick shots. But I have only gotten nipped by it once, when I forgot, and grabbed it stupidly with my support hand.
If you have thick fingers it might get your trigger finger.
Or, if you use a "finger-forward" hold, with your support hand index finger hooked around the front of the trigger guard, it might get you then.
Otherwise, using most any standard hold, or doing malfunction-clearing practice, I don't see it being a problem.
I liken it to the exposed barrel of a revolver, and nobody complained of them doing it for 150 years.
7. Low magazine capacity- Eight rounds of 9mm. Not much nowadays. But it's a tradeoff for a slim grip. I like Sig P225s for their grip size and shape- eight rounds also. That's part of it. I'm fine with it. If you need more, find a P7M13 with 13 round capacity. Of course, the slimness factor gets blown to bits.
To the good, a few of those thin spare magazines can be carried without noticing them.
8.Limited holster choices- You can't go to the mega-gunshop, and grab a Bianchi or Galco off the rack for a P7.
I admit it, I'm a leather snob. So if I have to get some Alessi, Sparks, or DelFatti leather for it, it's a good thing.
Other holster makers I know of are Ted Blocker, Blade-Tech, and I think Cen-Dex. Holsters are available, just not usually around the corner.
9. No cast bullets- Because of the gas port spewing lead fragments and bullet lube into the works, gumming up the piston, you can't use cast bullets. I don't care. Non-issue.
10. Spontanious disassembly- Supposedly, if you do it just right, this could happen: with an overhand grasp (as opposed to a "slingshot" grasp) of the slide, racking it as if clearing a malfunction, you can press in on the takedown button, and come up with the slide in one hand and frame in the other.
Some early versions had a more protruding takedown button. Mine has a sort-of in between type of button, before HK beveled one side to make it less of a possibility.
With mine, I TRIED to do this feat, and could not. Oh, I could make it happen if I went REAL slow, making sure I pressed it in all the way, and worked the slide just right, while pulling upward on it at the same time.
If you have one with a button that lets this happen, then just grind it down a little to shorten it. Maybe even to the point that it's flush, and you need to push it in with the tip of a pen.
It probably needs refinished anyway!
PRO AND CON, or, UNDECIDED-
1. Unique manual of arms- I had always heard that if you are going to carry a P7, carry only a P7. And it made perfect sense.
Now that I have one, I don't know about that. Of course, the "problem" is that you could switch to the P7 after carrying something else, forget, draw it when you NEED it, without squeezing it to cock it.
Now that I have one, the question is- How do you aquire a firing grip on a handgun without squeezing it?
When my hand grips the the P7, or any handgun, I take a reasonably firm grip. On the P7, when you squeeze, it gives. Naturally, I squeeze harder.
I think the "problem" solves itself.
2.Magazine release type and location- On the P7M8, it is the ambi, push-down lever behind and around the trigger guard type that HK uses on the USP now, and Walther uses on the P99.
Bad- If you carry without a holster, shoving the gun in your belt or waistband, the release will get tripped, and the magazine shoots out.
Good- You will use a holster like you should. I used to go without sometimes, even though I knew better. The P7 keeps me honest.
Good- It's fast and easy. I like it better than the "normal" type. I use my trigger finger, and don't shift my grip.
I like it, you may not.
Overall, I think the plusses outweigh the minuses. The plusses are big, the minuses are small.
Basically, when I shoot it, it hits. There are different kinds of accuracy. The first is how well it shoots groups. Another one is how easy or hard it is to make use of the first.
HK P7s shoot good groups, fast, and they let you use that capability.
On the bad side,
They cost a lot (what's it worth to be a better shooter- at least better than an attacker- trade two guns in on it since you probably won't shoot them after getting the P7 anyway).
Heavy (for it's size, not heavy for a gun).
The finish is poor (refinish when it wears, unless you find a new one with the HE finish).
It's complex in places (but hasn't broke yet).
It gets dirty and hot after 50 rounds(avoid 50 round gunfights).
I can only shoot nine times before reloading(big deal).
I had to get nice holsters.
I can't use cast bullets in a caliber that I don't use them in anyway.
Finally, some people, not me, have it come apart when clearing malfunctions that I haven't yet had happen.
I'd reccomend them to anyone, but you really should shoot one before you decide.
