Hobby versus proficiency. Is there a conflict?

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I don't see a conflict as long as people know the difference. I am fine if a guy just wants to have a gun for the fun of it, that's his choice. I am ....less fine with it if he believes that is all he needs to do to be ready to defend himself.
 
I was going to add a caveat that stated something like, 'this question only applies if you are both an SD'er and a collector/hunter/hobbyist' but I didn't. But you know what I mean...
B

Not really, but that's just fine.
 
There is value in cross-training.
If you've hit a plateau in one discipline, break up your training with something different. Then come back.
I've found that using a different firearm, or even switching to a different form of shooting, forces me to concentrate on the basics of position. That carries over when I go back to my main interest.
On a smaller scale, I try to keep some variety in my shooting at each session. Whenever I take my defensive handguns out, some of the shooting will be classic standing one-handed bullseye, just to remind my brain and muscles what it's like. A rifle session might include three-position slow and rapid, and a brief benchrest session.
 
For me it's about balance. I have to be reasonably proficient with the variety of platforms I own and shoot, but there are some I will never own and probably never shoot (at least not more than once or twice). I will never become proficient with them. I will be able to load and fire them safely, but that's not what I consider proficiency.

I know that if I focus too heavily on any one firearm, my proficiency with the others degrades. Whether that's from screwed up muscle memory, de-calibrated sight picture, or some other intangibles I can't say.

It's also important to note that practice, whether with one platform or with many, can never guarantee success. Generically speaking:

Properly practicing with my hunting rifles enhances my ability to make a clean, humane kill, but it will never get me closer to a buck or make him present an open broadside.

Properly practicing with my shotguns improves my trap and skeet scores, but unless I'm in the right place at the right time, it can't put a turkey in my truck or add to my waterfowl tally.

Properly practicing with my range handguns shrinks my groups and might make others at the range think I'm better than I am, but it won't necessarily make me a competition winner.

Proper study and practice of defensive tactics with my carry handguns can increase my chances of stopping an assailant in the unlikely event that shooting becomes my only option, but it won't produce the wisdom required for a proper mindset, and it can't stop anyone from attacking me.
 
Well I'm just an average joe shooter, no formal training besides a little coaching at CMP events and friendly help from other shooters. I really like firearms for the fun and to scratch my curiosity itch. I do however believe the most important reason for having them could ultimately be for defensive use.

As I don't shoot or train anywhere near as much as I wish I did I figure my best option for being proficient if I do need a firearm for serious social use is to focus my efforts on learning a certain type as good as possible. My defensive handguns are DA Ruger revolvers or Glock semi-auto pistols. My rifle is an AR and I have an FN SLP shotgun. Those are the guns I spend the bulk of my available shooting time working to shoot efficiently and effectively. My ideal goal is to have duplicates of the above guns.

A bobble when shooting at the range can be aggravating & embarassing, in real life it could be fatal. By keeping my manual of arms simple & consistent I believe I have the best chance if I ever need to use them.
 
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By all means since your (sp) a self proclaimed expert in my abilities(,) what guns can I not shoot OK with rapid fire at SD ranges?

There's no call for the snippy attitude, as I made no comment specifically directed at you.

While I'd welcome the opportunity to critique your shooting skills in person, that was not my point.

I said originally that skills can only transfer if the skills exist in the first place. Someone who only practices with a 14" barreled TC Encore in .22 rimfire will have trouble shooting a 1911 in .45 accurately at speed. Slowfire, tho, he'd do much better, at least for the first 2-3 shots before flinching asserts itself.

Forget about drawing and reloading at all at speed, as those skills don't exist in this hypothetical shooter
 
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mavracer said:
As long as the sights are on top and the trigger is on the bottom I'll probably be OK.

mavracer said:
By all means since your a self proclaimed expert in my abilities what guns can I not shoot OK with rapid fire at SD ranges?

As long as your definition of "OK" means just getting a shot off, regardless of how long it takes you or where it hits, then I'm sure you're "OK" with any of them.

You'll find in the real world that someone who's trained enough on a Glock to be unconciously competent will not perform as well (by which I mean shoot equal scores on something like an IPSC match or the IDPA qualifier) with a 1911 until they get used to the safety and trigger differences. Same thing applies to a 1911 vs a Beretta M9, etc.

Most aggravating gun I ever shot was a Taurus 92 with a 3 position thumb-drop safety (automatically dropped the hammer if you pressed it down past the "off safe" position) in the same place as a 1911 safety. I shoot Glocks and 1911's about equally, my thumb does the same thing (automatically tries to ride the safety down) whether I'm drawing and shooting a 1911 or a Glock. With the Taurus, the pressure from my thumb on the safety dropped the hammer every shot, making it double action every time. Someone who's muscle memory didn't include downward pressure on the thumb safety would be much more effective than me using it in a SD situation.

Since the OP was asking about emergency procedures, what's "OK" on the range might not be considered "OK" by someone in a self defense situation.
 
There's no call for the snippy attitude, as I made no comment specifically directed at you.
Are you refering to me now or is "you" somebody else?
I said originally that skills can only transfer if the skills exist in the first place.
If the skills don't exist, then they couldn't be affected by change anyway, so your point is, well, pointless.
If the skills existed even to a lesser extent, then the extent change was evident could be discussed.
and I seriously doubt your hypothetical shooters draw speed or rate of fire would be negatively affected by taking the T/C out of his holster and replacing it with a 1911.
 
Mavracer, I will not engage your foolishness further.

Back to the OP: recreational skills will transfer easily between platforms. But folks who only engage in recreational shooting will have trouble instantly transforming those abilities into efficient combat/defensive skills.

People who only practice parallel parking will struggle in big city traffic if they've never done it before.
 
I can pick up any of them, any day, and make a shot -- but to really RUN a gun well, to be in top form with it, I need to concentrate on that one and re-establish the habits that make me do what needs done with that gun seamlessly, every time, without conscious effort.
Same here.
 
Not really by design, but after 40 years of gun trading I don't feel I shoot any particular brand or type much better than any other. I've owned most all of them. Now I do have my favorites, but if I were issued almost anything, and given about 100 rounds to practice with I'd feel quite comfortable with any quality, reliable firearm. I'm always amused at those that say they cannot get used to a Glock grip angle. Not that a Glock is for everyone, but the grip angle argument is pretty lame. Anyone who tries can master one. It still may not be your favorite, but anyone who wants to can master the gun.

When choosing guns for hunting or recreational shooting I firmly believe in using whatever you enjoy shooting. Hunting and plinking is for fun, use what you like even if it is not the most efficient tool for the job. I tend to gravitate towards both ends of the spectrum. Most of my hunting guns are what I consider the best available, but I also use some older, less effective guns just because I enjoy them. Not much in between.

When it comes to personal protection, either from human or animal predators, I don't believe in using something just for nostalgia. I want the best I can get my hands on. I love my 1911's and my S&W revolvers and shoot them a lot at the range, but if my life is in danger I'll reach for a more modern pistol design every time.
 
I'm competent, I'm not proficient. I am not going to out shoot Team Smith and Wesson but I can hit a target consistently enough to get what ever job I'm doing done.
Drawing and using cover? that is a different matter I need more practice.
I can hunt, I can hit what I am at I have yet to train under a SD / HD simulation. I have just been chucking lead at targets.
 
MrDig, you sound proficient to me.

To my way of thinking, "competent" means you're safe. "Proficient" means you're not only safe, but have achieved a level of skill that can be described as "good."

Which is better than most typical gunowners.
 
DavidE,
So that I have this straight, I know you are a very proficient shooter and are capable I'm sure of mastering any platform. I have not sure what guns you have shot or what you are shooting now so bear with me.
If you had/have become proficient with Glocks and 1911s, but were/are currently shooting sigs exclusively and haven't/hadn't picked up a 1911 or a Glock for months. You don't think you could pick up a 1911 or a Glock right now and probably defend yourself?
 
I'm confused too, are we talking about average run of the mill SD like what you see in the NRA's Armed Citizen or are we talking about competition shooting like IDPA, IPSC, 3 Gun, etc.?

I haven't seen too many competition shooters in The Armed Citizen, which is encouraging since I'd hate to think you have to be a IPSC master to successfully defend yourself.
 
I haven't seen too many competition shooters in The Armed Citizen, which is encouraging since I'd hate to think you have to be a IPSC master to successfully defend yourself.

The most important thing is being willing, but that's fodder for another thread.

I agree the OP was a bit muddled about what he was after.
 
DavidE,
So that I have this straight, I know you are a very proficient shooter and are capable I'm sure of mastering any platform.
If you had/have become proficient with Glocks and 1911s, but were/are currently shooting sigs exclusively and haven't/hadn't picked up a 1911 or a Glock for months. You don't think you could pick up a 1911 or a Glock right now and probably defend yourself?

I appreciate your new tone, thank you.

I am not a good example, as I have achieved a certain skill level with various hand gun platforms. I handle them all nearly every day. But I don't consider myself to be merely a recreational/casual shooter, either.

My example of someone only shooting a .22 rimfire Encore was to illustrate that just because he might be an accomplished shot with that gun/caliber slowfire, that skill-set, such as it is, wouldn't "transfer over" to, say, a Model 19 S&W loaded with full house magnums as far as firing it quickly and accurately double action. Slowfire, sure, especially shooting it single action.

Slowfire, if the basics are properly executed, then good hits are easily possible, regardless of platform or caliber. It's when we introduce speed that things get truly tested.

Re-reading the OP, I will add that certain guns require specific protocols to be safe and/or efficient with them. If you shot 50 rds thru your 1911 or 5906 20 years ago, and have only shot your Glock since, you could find yourself in serious trouble in a gunfight if you don't have your Glock in hand.
 
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I don't know if I see the original poster as having muddled his question, so much as having asked a question which is inherently difficult to answer precisely.

We have members here who have claimed to limit themselves to one platform of handgun and one of rifle (maybe one of shotgun, too) because they feel that they want to dedicate every moment of training and practice to increasing the chances that -- if they ever MUST use that weapon to prevent a death -- they will use is perfectly and without conflicting wiring in their head/hands possibly causing a hesitation, malfunction, or inaccuracy. They want to be ONE with that gun, and feel that anything else they would concentrate on would be a distraction and a diversion of that mastery.

We also have many, many, MANY shooters who just plain love guns and shooting and simply want to be 'good-nuff-ok' with just about any gun they pick up -- and who earnestly believe that as long as there is A gun on hand when they find themselves needing to shoot or die they'll likely be able to rise to the moment and use it well enough.

(Like the 'lucky winners' gallery posted in the American Rifleman's Armed Citizen column every month, half of whom seem to have defended their families successfully against an MS-13 gang chapter armed only with a rusted-shut Crecent single-shot .410 shotgun left loaded since Prohibition, and which they somehow had time to retreive from the bottom of an abandoned well.)

Both types will answer the given question in highly certain terms, based on what they prefer to believe.
 
If you have the basics down, you should be ok. Obviously the more practice, the better. I do believe however that what is 100x more important is being exposed to situations where you have to think and act quickly under pressure.
For example, in veterinary school you learn to give injections on a nice calm horse. This does not prepare you very well for reality where you have a 1000lb animal plunging up and down, throwing his feet. Not the easiest thing to find the jugular, make the stick and get away safely. Most vets learn to do it but in my personal observations the ones who learn quickest are not the ones who have given the most shots, but the ones who have handled more stress(ex military, used to racehorses vs pleasure, paramedic, etc)

I honestly believe that nothing prepares you for SD more then fighting and there is no way to train for that(somethings help if course) Fear is Fear it's physiologic processes are medical fact.
In summary, In my opinion is that someone who deals with danger day after day, with minimal training will behave better than even the best shooter whos day to day life is more mundane. It goes without saying that training is very important. But I would offer that say 5 hours a week shooting for COM hits as fast as possible, paired with a history of handling several life or death situations is better then 40hrs a week of tactical classes, and never having to face the fear.
 
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I am not a good example, as I have achieved a certain skill level with various hand gun platforms. I handle them all nearly every day. But I don't consider myself to be merely a recreational/casual shooter, either.
I think you might be exactly what the OP is asking about. A person who has achieve a level of proficiency with several different platforms to be able to pick any one up in a SD situation and use it with "little" ( as I wouldn't say "no") drop off in effectiveness.
Slowfire, if the basics are properly executed, then good hits are easily possible, regardless of platform or caliber. It's when we introduce speed that things get truly tested.
Yes, but I remember Brian Enos saying something along the line of a great action shooter still uses the same fundementals they just apply them faster.
I may not have achieved the proficiency level at action shooting that you have, but I do compete with several different platforms in IDPA and SASS and I don't believe the minor difference in my proficiency with any given firearm that will be the difference maker. As you said my willingness, determination and my ability to remain level headed will be the deciding factor.
 
Yes, but I remember Brian Enos saying something along the line of a great action shooter still uses the same fundementals they just apply them faster.

True, but most people don't know how.

As you said my willingness, determination and my ability to remain level headed will be the deciding factor.

Agreed.
 
Is it in fact a tradeoff, or can many experienced shooters move from one weapon to the other, whether recently practiced or not, with no loss in effectiveness?
Upon further reflection, I guess that depends on how one defines "loss of effectiveness". As a competition shooter, I wouldn't shoot a Glock all season then pick up a Sig and head off to the Production Nationals. On the flip side, I have no qualms about not practicing with my carry gun for weeks at a time.
 
I think it partially depends on what you consider "proficient"

Most hobbiest / collectors are usually capable of using the weapons they own...but many collectors own an astonishing amount of pieces, so true continual mastery may be difficult with the exception of a few of them.

Most solely self-defense or combat oriented users will limit themselves to a particular set of platforms because in their eyes, maximum proficiency with a few tools is more likely to pay off than a large collection of tools.

What each one of these individuals considers "proficient" is undoubtedly very far from the others prospective.

The "professional" prospective, for lack of a better term-, would not consider anything less than full combat capability... CQB, 25, 50, 200, and longer Marksman rating sustained fire depending on the weapon platform- while executing tactical movements and magazine dumps while communicating with fellow shooters to neutralize multiple threats.

The hobbiest/ collector might consider proficiency the ability to clean and service each piece, and fire it at its intended target multiple times to successful effect. 2-4" groups for pistols beyond 15 yards, 20-23 runs on clays, and 1" groups on hunting rifles with limited magazine capacity. These figures are just an example.

Granted, we all want to be better shooters...but a combination of natural and learned ability, practice ( time and money availability), and weapon capability will limit the hobbiest over the "professional"

There is a little bit of the eternal argument here, thats for sure.


I will say however, that even the collectors with the broadest collections will have one or two items that they both value- and can use- much better than the others. Often times, this pairing results because of the collectors varied interests and pursuit of that perfect piece or pieces that suit them "just so".

Those would be the pieces of ultimate reliability and function to those individuals...and would be kept at the bedside, at the ready on the hunting rack, or squirreled away with packs of ammo for something we all hope never comes.

We all have those :D We use them well, and we use them often...which came first can be the chicken and egg argument.

So I would say to your question- No.

Having and using a variety of firearms does not necessarily limit your ability to use those pieces that you use best in your collection, however large that collection may be, in the event that you need them for your own survival. This statement is predicated on the belief that you will regularly use the pieces you deem most important to you as the tools you need them to be.
 
k4swb,
Sounds like you've gotten your ringside seats already! Turning your sword into plowshares!!

Nah, still got my swords and guns. I shoot on average twice a week but to me it is a leisurely pastime. Now days I do most of my shooting from a chair. I have no business running and ducking while shooting but occasionally I like to watch others do that.
 
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