Dave Williams
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 377
Hello, I hope you all enjoy this AAR.
Any errors I apologize in advance for, alot of this is from memory, but I believe I am accurately quoting the instructor staff.
On May 5-6 I attended the class at Hocking College called "INSTINCTIVE POINT SHOOTING - The Applegate Method of Combat Point Shooting". It was put on by the School of Public Safety - Firearms Training Division, and was taught primarily by Steve Barron. Clyde Beasley and Brice Fick were assistant instructors. Barron and Beasley were personally instructed by Rex Applegate, and Fick was a student of theirs. Barron and Beasley are both retired Cops (with lots of great stories) who now teach part time, and Fick is a Sheriff Deputy from the area and teaches at Hocking part time. Barron also has an interest/experience in knife work/combatives, and Barron and Beasley also have some experience with jacks/saps. Great stuff.
It was a great class, and the instructors were fantastic. If you have any interest in Point Shooting, WWII Combatives, Rex Applegate, or a myriad of other related topics, I highly recommend this course. Some might be put off by the term "Instinctive". Barron states that just means Point Shooting relies on your ability to point at things. Simple.
The course cost $300, and ammunition was included in the price. I shot at least 500rds of .40SW from my G22C duty pistol.
The course started at 0800 with me and 3 others, an attorney from Arkansas, and a father and son team (businessmen)from Ohio. Great guys. We had a fascinating 4 hour lecture (which seemed like it lasted 10 minutes). Some of the names that are in my lecture notes are: FBI, McBride, Bianchi, Prohibition, Grant-Taylor, Dillinger, Fairbairn, Shanghai, Sykes, SMP, SOE, Donovan, Applegate, Cooper, Weaver, Clint Smith, Mid-South, Roosevelt, COI, OSS, MITC, Camp Richie, Haney, Grossman, Siddle, Valhalla, etc. Fascinating stuff, I could have sat there all day and listened. Barron is great teacher, and he knows his material.
Barron gave us his view on the most incorrect statistic tossed about by firearms instructors: "Most gunfights occur within 21 feet". Barron tosses the BS flag on this, saying that most gunfights actually occur within 5 feet if you look at the statistics. This coincided with Applegate's thoughts that the most important technique of them all was the Body Point due to it's usefullness at close range. Hip Shooting/Body Point can not be practiced enough. That is where the fight is most likey to occur.
We broke for a brief lunch, then we joined 9 Police Academy Students for the live fire portion of class. For the rest of Saturday we learned the basics of the system: The Body Point, One Hand Point Shooting, and Two Hand Point Shooting.
Barron runs a hot range very safely, and would occasionally have us unload for some dry fire. The instructors all shot demos of everything they expected from us and I like that. One relay of 13, 3 instructors. I was very impressed by the Police Academy Students' shooting. Barron states that the Applegate system tends to "even out" the skill level of the shooters, and it was true, we all shot about the same. Everyone was able to get good center mass hits in an acceptable amount of time. We ended around 1700.
Sunday was 0800 to 1700, with a brief lunch. We started with some warmup drills of Body Point and One and Two Handed Point Shooting. Then we moved right to a series of drills that everyone had to pass, which were IIRC:
-Body Point, 1.5 Second, 5 feet, Holster Ready, Two Shots(I tried to use my off hand in a head/neck shield postion, but Barron recommended I stage my weak hand for a chin jab, I like that)
-One Hand Point Shooting, 1 Second, 10ft, 15ft, 20ft, Low Ready, One Shot
-Two Hand Point Shooting, 1 Second, 20ft, Low Ready, One Shot
-"Assured Stop Drill"(Body Armor Drill), 1.5 Second, 5 feet, Low Ready, either 2-body,1-head/2-body,1-groin/zipperdrill, we practiced all three
-Multiple Targets, 2 targets, 4 rounds, 2 Seconds, IIRC 10 feet
-Surprise Target Exercise, basically entering a room at the low ready, digging the wall, and identifying and engaging the designated target in 2 Seconds
-Dim Light Exercise, basically engaging a hostile target a few times in very low light to show how well point shooting works in such lighting situations
-An exercise where we shot a bobber target(there lateral mover was broken)
-A shooting and moving exercise, basically shooting on the move forward/back and some left/right pivots
These drills were all practiced numerous times before shooting for score.
I was very impressed by the rate of speed everyone was shooting at. It's kind of a no brainer really, you don't have to take the time to look at the sights, so you can "get there first with the most lead". For instance, on the multiple target drill, I was able to shoot 4 shots from the ready(2 on each target, center mass) in 1.05 second. And what was great was that the recruits, who have a fraction of the trigger time and training I do, were right there with me. Each individual student gets timed one at a time with a shooting timer on these drills. I like that, as it adds a little pressure when the whole class is watching you.
Barron and Fick used G17s with no sights for the class, and Beasley used a Smith M64 3" with tape over the front sight the first day and a Ruger MKII with no sights the second day . All students had their sights taped over before the first shot was fired, and ALL shooting was done with taped sights. 20' was as far as we shot from the whole class.
Barron stated for the record the no sights/taped sights was strictly for Point Shooting training, and that his street gun has high visibility sights in case he should ever need them. He does not recommend carrying a gun with no sights. All the students used Glocks(9 G17s, 2 G22s, 1 G22C) except for one of the businessmen with a polymer Kahr 9mm.
Barron attended Gunsight under Cooper, with Clint Smith as a line coach and taught Weaver at Hocking for years. He also attended and taught the curriculum from Mid-South at Hocking for a year. He stated that Point Shooting is just another tool in the tool box. Every student in the Hocking Academy receives this training, as well as sighted fire training.
Point Shooting is alive and well in Ohio, Barron and Beasley have been teaching this for 10 years, and have trained a lot of people. The day after this class, I started a state semi-auto pistol instructor class. Surprise, surprise, Point Shooting is part of the State Curriculum. I found out that at least one State Agency sends it's FIs to Hocking to become Point Shooting Instructors, and they then teach their Officers. Point Shooting is here to stay.
When I was at the OSHP Academy back in '98, we had to shoot one low round count Combat Course using Point Shooting, it seems like the instructors HAD to teach primarily sighted fire, and just threw the Point Shooting in for good measure, like they knew it was needed. I will say that these kids I shot with last week definitely outshot the kids I was with 9 years ago. Not even close, the combination of speed and accuracy was impressive.
Great class, highly recommended, private citizens welcome(must submit to criminal record check), very affordable when you consider ammo is included. I learned alot. They will set up a course if there is enough demand, they are also going to do a snubby class(Barron is a huge snubby fan), and a rifle/shotgun point shooting class. They will also do a WWII combatives course if there is enough demand.
Dave Williams
Any errors I apologize in advance for, alot of this is from memory, but I believe I am accurately quoting the instructor staff.
On May 5-6 I attended the class at Hocking College called "INSTINCTIVE POINT SHOOTING - The Applegate Method of Combat Point Shooting". It was put on by the School of Public Safety - Firearms Training Division, and was taught primarily by Steve Barron. Clyde Beasley and Brice Fick were assistant instructors. Barron and Beasley were personally instructed by Rex Applegate, and Fick was a student of theirs. Barron and Beasley are both retired Cops (with lots of great stories) who now teach part time, and Fick is a Sheriff Deputy from the area and teaches at Hocking part time. Barron also has an interest/experience in knife work/combatives, and Barron and Beasley also have some experience with jacks/saps. Great stuff.
It was a great class, and the instructors were fantastic. If you have any interest in Point Shooting, WWII Combatives, Rex Applegate, or a myriad of other related topics, I highly recommend this course. Some might be put off by the term "Instinctive". Barron states that just means Point Shooting relies on your ability to point at things. Simple.
The course cost $300, and ammunition was included in the price. I shot at least 500rds of .40SW from my G22C duty pistol.
The course started at 0800 with me and 3 others, an attorney from Arkansas, and a father and son team (businessmen)from Ohio. Great guys. We had a fascinating 4 hour lecture (which seemed like it lasted 10 minutes). Some of the names that are in my lecture notes are: FBI, McBride, Bianchi, Prohibition, Grant-Taylor, Dillinger, Fairbairn, Shanghai, Sykes, SMP, SOE, Donovan, Applegate, Cooper, Weaver, Clint Smith, Mid-South, Roosevelt, COI, OSS, MITC, Camp Richie, Haney, Grossman, Siddle, Valhalla, etc. Fascinating stuff, I could have sat there all day and listened. Barron is great teacher, and he knows his material.
Barron gave us his view on the most incorrect statistic tossed about by firearms instructors: "Most gunfights occur within 21 feet". Barron tosses the BS flag on this, saying that most gunfights actually occur within 5 feet if you look at the statistics. This coincided with Applegate's thoughts that the most important technique of them all was the Body Point due to it's usefullness at close range. Hip Shooting/Body Point can not be practiced enough. That is where the fight is most likey to occur.
We broke for a brief lunch, then we joined 9 Police Academy Students for the live fire portion of class. For the rest of Saturday we learned the basics of the system: The Body Point, One Hand Point Shooting, and Two Hand Point Shooting.
Barron runs a hot range very safely, and would occasionally have us unload for some dry fire. The instructors all shot demos of everything they expected from us and I like that. One relay of 13, 3 instructors. I was very impressed by the Police Academy Students' shooting. Barron states that the Applegate system tends to "even out" the skill level of the shooters, and it was true, we all shot about the same. Everyone was able to get good center mass hits in an acceptable amount of time. We ended around 1700.
Sunday was 0800 to 1700, with a brief lunch. We started with some warmup drills of Body Point and One and Two Handed Point Shooting. Then we moved right to a series of drills that everyone had to pass, which were IIRC:
-Body Point, 1.5 Second, 5 feet, Holster Ready, Two Shots(I tried to use my off hand in a head/neck shield postion, but Barron recommended I stage my weak hand for a chin jab, I like that)
-One Hand Point Shooting, 1 Second, 10ft, 15ft, 20ft, Low Ready, One Shot
-Two Hand Point Shooting, 1 Second, 20ft, Low Ready, One Shot
-"Assured Stop Drill"(Body Armor Drill), 1.5 Second, 5 feet, Low Ready, either 2-body,1-head/2-body,1-groin/zipperdrill, we practiced all three
-Multiple Targets, 2 targets, 4 rounds, 2 Seconds, IIRC 10 feet
-Surprise Target Exercise, basically entering a room at the low ready, digging the wall, and identifying and engaging the designated target in 2 Seconds
-Dim Light Exercise, basically engaging a hostile target a few times in very low light to show how well point shooting works in such lighting situations
-An exercise where we shot a bobber target(there lateral mover was broken)
-A shooting and moving exercise, basically shooting on the move forward/back and some left/right pivots
These drills were all practiced numerous times before shooting for score.
I was very impressed by the rate of speed everyone was shooting at. It's kind of a no brainer really, you don't have to take the time to look at the sights, so you can "get there first with the most lead". For instance, on the multiple target drill, I was able to shoot 4 shots from the ready(2 on each target, center mass) in 1.05 second. And what was great was that the recruits, who have a fraction of the trigger time and training I do, were right there with me. Each individual student gets timed one at a time with a shooting timer on these drills. I like that, as it adds a little pressure when the whole class is watching you.
Barron and Fick used G17s with no sights for the class, and Beasley used a Smith M64 3" with tape over the front sight the first day and a Ruger MKII with no sights the second day . All students had their sights taped over before the first shot was fired, and ALL shooting was done with taped sights. 20' was as far as we shot from the whole class.
Barron stated for the record the no sights/taped sights was strictly for Point Shooting training, and that his street gun has high visibility sights in case he should ever need them. He does not recommend carrying a gun with no sights. All the students used Glocks(9 G17s, 2 G22s, 1 G22C) except for one of the businessmen with a polymer Kahr 9mm.
Barron attended Gunsight under Cooper, with Clint Smith as a line coach and taught Weaver at Hocking for years. He also attended and taught the curriculum from Mid-South at Hocking for a year. He stated that Point Shooting is just another tool in the tool box. Every student in the Hocking Academy receives this training, as well as sighted fire training.
Point Shooting is alive and well in Ohio, Barron and Beasley have been teaching this for 10 years, and have trained a lot of people. The day after this class, I started a state semi-auto pistol instructor class. Surprise, surprise, Point Shooting is part of the State Curriculum. I found out that at least one State Agency sends it's FIs to Hocking to become Point Shooting Instructors, and they then teach their Officers. Point Shooting is here to stay.
When I was at the OSHP Academy back in '98, we had to shoot one low round count Combat Course using Point Shooting, it seems like the instructors HAD to teach primarily sighted fire, and just threw the Point Shooting in for good measure, like they knew it was needed. I will say that these kids I shot with last week definitely outshot the kids I was with 9 years ago. Not even close, the combination of speed and accuracy was impressive.
Great class, highly recommended, private citizens welcome(must submit to criminal record check), very affordable when you consider ammo is included. I learned alot. They will set up a course if there is enough demand, they are also going to do a snubby class(Barron is a huge snubby fan), and a rifle/shotgun point shooting class. They will also do a WWII combatives course if there is enough demand.
Dave Williams
