Jeff,
Is the left column with the muzzel down indoor ready?
Is the left column with the muzzel down indoor ready?
Carbine Point Shooting AAR
- Thread starter Matthew Temkin
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hso,
The photos on the left is close to indoor ready. Who is TDT and why are they advocating that high port position? It's very fast, but the increased speed comes at a high cost. A very high probablility that you will shoot a team mate in the head while in a stack. If you spent 6-8 hours a day going through doors, with the same guys in the same position in the stack you might get to where you could use this position for one or two members of the team safely.
I've used the underarm assault position with both the M16 and the M60 machine gun. I can't say I was impressed with it. Everyone seems to forget that I was trained on Quick Kill in 1974. It was part of the BRM POI back then.
Jeff
The photos on the left is close to indoor ready. Who is TDT and why are they advocating that high port position? It's very fast, but the increased speed comes at a high cost. A very high probablility that you will shoot a team mate in the head while in a stack. If you spent 6-8 hours a day going through doors, with the same guys in the same position in the stack you might get to where you could use this position for one or two members of the team safely.
I've used the underarm assault position with both the M16 and the M60 machine gun. I can't say I was impressed with it. Everyone seems to forget that I was trained on Quick Kill in 1974. It was part of the BRM POI back then.
Jeff
Jeff,
Here's the guy and the reference. I just needed a picture of low ready and the defensive high ready came with it.
Long Gun Weapons Retention
Surviving The Entry
by Sgt. John Hutchison
In the last article we discussed Tactical Defense Training handgun weapon retention both in and out of the holster. In this article we will be discussing long gun weapon retention. By long gun, I mean weapons like shotguns, rifles, and submachine guns any firearm that requires both of your hands to operate.
It is obvious that one of the greatest advantages of a firearm is distance, this is especially true of a long gun. So when using a long gun at distance there is not much need for weapon retention. But, when we take a long gun into an environment like the inside of building or down a narrow ally weapon retention is very important. Remember, just because you have a rifle or shotgun does not mean you will be able to use it. One of the best ways to defeat any firearm is to get close to it; this is especially true with a long gun.
In an enclosed environment it is much easier for your opponent to get a hold of a long gun then a handgun. Once they get a hold of the weapon it will be easy for them to control the weapon, control you, and stop you from using the weapon against them.
We all know that we should not lead with the muzzle of our weapon when going around a corner or into any place we can’t see, this applies to a handgun or long gun. With a long gun it is even more important to not lead with the muzzle because of the ease with which the weapon can be grabbed. There are two ways to prevent leading with the muzzle; muzzle down which is also called the indoor ready position, or muzzle up position.
Lets discus both positions, first the muzzle down or indoor ready. This position allows you go around a corner without the muzzle being seen, it also allows you to stack several people together very close with long guns. The disadvantages are: as you attempt to go around a corner or through a door way the suspect can easily stop you from raising your muzzle. It does not take any special training to do this, all the suspect needs to do is put any part of his body against the muzzle and you will not be able to raise it. The second problem is both of your hands are on the weapon so you will not be able to stop any attacks to your head. If the suspect has any kind of weapon he will be able to use it without your being able to defend against the attack.
Richard Ryan and I began experimenting with the Muzzle Up or Shield Entry Position in the eighties as a means of surviving worst case scenario encounters during entry and clearing with the long gun. It was a natural extension of the concepts developed for the TDT Shield Defense System. The advantages of the muzzle up position are you can go around a corner without leading with the muzzle. If a suspect attempts to grab the muzzle you can use the weapon to drive the suspect off by using an impact push with the weapon technique. In the muzzle up position the weapon can also be used to protect your head from the suspects attacks even if the suspect attacks with weapons like knives or clubs. Also, your arms and shoulders are in a much stronger position so you will be able to control and use the weapon against the suspect. The disadvantage of the position is the muzzle is close to your head, which could be a problem if the weapon were to discharge. Also, if you are not in a good stance and ready to drive off a suspect it is possible the suspect could drive the muzzle into your face or head.
There may be some concern about the speed of getting the muzzle on target from the muzzle up position as opposed to the low ready position. We did tests with members of the SWAT team I was on, we all found very little to no difference in the speed of acquiring the target. I have run tests with several other people with the same results. I actually found I was faster from the muzzle up position.
There is a technique where you use the muzzle to strike the suspect, this can work but the suspect has a better chance of parrying the muzzle and then getting control of the weapon. Also, your head is exposed with this technique so if the technique does not work you are open to a counter attack with little chance of defending your head and throat area.
Now we need to discuss slings on long guns. If you don’t have a sling on your weapon you should get one. A sling on the long gun is what a holster is to the handgun. There are several types of slings but we are going to talk about the tactical sling where the sling is around your upper body. This allows you to let go of the weapon with both hands to do what ever you need to without dropping the weapon. This can be a good thing but it can also be a liability. If the suspect is able to grab the weapon he can use it to pull you off balance because you are attached to the weapon by the sling.
We all need to remember that regardless of what type of firearm you may have when you enter into an enclosed environment there is the possibility that an opponent can get to your weapon and nullify its power or your ability to use it. When that happens what will keep you alive is your defensive tactics skills not your firearm.
About Sgt. John Hutchison:
Sergeant John Hutchison is a lifelong martial artist and 20 year veteran law enforcement officer. In his youth he studied numerous martial arts systems and received his first Black Belt in Shotokan Karate in 19??. Thereafter he joined the navy, which led him to the study of more martial arts systems and styles. After a stint in the Navy, John joined the police force where he eventually became a S.W.A.T. and Special Operations Team Leader and Defensive Tactics Instructor. Sgt. Hutchison also has extensive experience with all forms of weapons combat and is a highly respected firearms, edged weapon and integrated force instructor for the world famous Gunsite Training Center in Paulden, Arizona. Over a decade ago Sgt. Hutchison met and began training with Richard Ryan the founder of Dynamic Combat.™ Over the last decade, Sgt. Hutchison was instrumental in the development of Ryan’s Tactical Defense Training System™ for law enforcement. Today he is a certified Fourth Degree DCM Combat Expert Instructor at the Dynamic Combat Academy in Phoenix, Arizona as the Chief TDT law enforcement Instructor for Ryan Defense Systems, Inc. For more information in Sgt. Hutchison you can email him at [email protected] or visit www.DynamicCombat.com.
Here's the guy and the reference. I just needed a picture of low ready and the defensive high ready came with it.
Long Gun Weapons Retention
Surviving The Entry
by Sgt. John Hutchison
In the last article we discussed Tactical Defense Training handgun weapon retention both in and out of the holster. In this article we will be discussing long gun weapon retention. By long gun, I mean weapons like shotguns, rifles, and submachine guns any firearm that requires both of your hands to operate.
It is obvious that one of the greatest advantages of a firearm is distance, this is especially true of a long gun. So when using a long gun at distance there is not much need for weapon retention. But, when we take a long gun into an environment like the inside of building or down a narrow ally weapon retention is very important. Remember, just because you have a rifle or shotgun does not mean you will be able to use it. One of the best ways to defeat any firearm is to get close to it; this is especially true with a long gun.
In an enclosed environment it is much easier for your opponent to get a hold of a long gun then a handgun. Once they get a hold of the weapon it will be easy for them to control the weapon, control you, and stop you from using the weapon against them.
We all know that we should not lead with the muzzle of our weapon when going around a corner or into any place we can’t see, this applies to a handgun or long gun. With a long gun it is even more important to not lead with the muzzle because of the ease with which the weapon can be grabbed. There are two ways to prevent leading with the muzzle; muzzle down which is also called the indoor ready position, or muzzle up position.
Lets discus both positions, first the muzzle down or indoor ready. This position allows you go around a corner without the muzzle being seen, it also allows you to stack several people together very close with long guns. The disadvantages are: as you attempt to go around a corner or through a door way the suspect can easily stop you from raising your muzzle. It does not take any special training to do this, all the suspect needs to do is put any part of his body against the muzzle and you will not be able to raise it. The second problem is both of your hands are on the weapon so you will not be able to stop any attacks to your head. If the suspect has any kind of weapon he will be able to use it without your being able to defend against the attack.
Richard Ryan and I began experimenting with the Muzzle Up or Shield Entry Position in the eighties as a means of surviving worst case scenario encounters during entry and clearing with the long gun. It was a natural extension of the concepts developed for the TDT Shield Defense System. The advantages of the muzzle up position are you can go around a corner without leading with the muzzle. If a suspect attempts to grab the muzzle you can use the weapon to drive the suspect off by using an impact push with the weapon technique. In the muzzle up position the weapon can also be used to protect your head from the suspects attacks even if the suspect attacks with weapons like knives or clubs. Also, your arms and shoulders are in a much stronger position so you will be able to control and use the weapon against the suspect. The disadvantage of the position is the muzzle is close to your head, which could be a problem if the weapon were to discharge. Also, if you are not in a good stance and ready to drive off a suspect it is possible the suspect could drive the muzzle into your face or head.
There may be some concern about the speed of getting the muzzle on target from the muzzle up position as opposed to the low ready position. We did tests with members of the SWAT team I was on, we all found very little to no difference in the speed of acquiring the target. I have run tests with several other people with the same results. I actually found I was faster from the muzzle up position.
There is a technique where you use the muzzle to strike the suspect, this can work but the suspect has a better chance of parrying the muzzle and then getting control of the weapon. Also, your head is exposed with this technique so if the technique does not work you are open to a counter attack with little chance of defending your head and throat area.
Now we need to discuss slings on long guns. If you don’t have a sling on your weapon you should get one. A sling on the long gun is what a holster is to the handgun. There are several types of slings but we are going to talk about the tactical sling where the sling is around your upper body. This allows you to let go of the weapon with both hands to do what ever you need to without dropping the weapon. This can be a good thing but it can also be a liability. If the suspect is able to grab the weapon he can use it to pull you off balance because you are attached to the weapon by the sling.
We all need to remember that regardless of what type of firearm you may have when you enter into an enclosed environment there is the possibility that an opponent can get to your weapon and nullify its power or your ability to use it. When that happens what will keep you alive is your defensive tactics skills not your firearm.
About Sgt. John Hutchison:
Sergeant John Hutchison is a lifelong martial artist and 20 year veteran law enforcement officer. In his youth he studied numerous martial arts systems and received his first Black Belt in Shotokan Karate in 19??. Thereafter he joined the navy, which led him to the study of more martial arts systems and styles. After a stint in the Navy, John joined the police force where he eventually became a S.W.A.T. and Special Operations Team Leader and Defensive Tactics Instructor. Sgt. Hutchison also has extensive experience with all forms of weapons combat and is a highly respected firearms, edged weapon and integrated force instructor for the world famous Gunsite Training Center in Paulden, Arizona. Over a decade ago Sgt. Hutchison met and began training with Richard Ryan the founder of Dynamic Combat.™ Over the last decade, Sgt. Hutchison was instrumental in the development of Ryan’s Tactical Defense Training System™ for law enforcement. Today he is a certified Fourth Degree DCM Combat Expert Instructor at the Dynamic Combat Academy in Phoenix, Arizona as the Chief TDT law enforcement Instructor for Ryan Defense Systems, Inc. For more information in Sgt. Hutchison you can email him at [email protected] or visit www.DynamicCombat.com.
OP
OP
Matthew Temkin
Member
One problem with the internet is that the written word is very hard to convey information.
So I will make the same suggestion that I made on www.warriortalk two years ago..
Which is a informal get together at a range where interested parties can exchange information and compare notes.
I could host it here in the NYC/Long Island area, but I would also be inclined to travel if someone else would like to set it up.
Is anyone interested?
As to muzzle up...
My friends Swedish SWAT team was trained by Tony Long of London Metro Swat ( who was heavily influenced by the SAS) and when stacking up the MP5 men have their subguns muzzle up.
Upon entry they are trained to sweep it down at a 45 degree angle, the man ahead's shoulder as a reference point.
So I will make the same suggestion that I made on www.warriortalk two years ago..
Which is a informal get together at a range where interested parties can exchange information and compare notes.
I could host it here in the NYC/Long Island area, but I would also be inclined to travel if someone else would like to set it up.
Is anyone interested?
As to muzzle up...
My friends Swedish SWAT team was trained by Tony Long of London Metro Swat ( who was heavily influenced by the SAS) and when stacking up the MP5 men have their subguns muzzle up.
Upon entry they are trained to sweep it down at a 45 degree angle, the man ahead's shoulder as a reference point.
I'll sponsor anything anyone wants to come here for. 
The more and more varied the better.
I've got access to 500+ acres with good back stops and buildings where we could work.
What I won't do is sponsor a grass throwing contest.
The more and more varied the better.
I've got access to 500+ acres with good back stops and buildings where we could work.
What I won't do is sponsor a grass throwing contest.
OP
OP
Matthew Temkin
Member
Which part of the country are you from?
500 acres!!!
How is the deer hunting by you?
OK....if you sponser it then I will come.
500 acres!!!
How is the deer hunting by you?
OK....if you sponser it then I will come.
Eastern Tennessee
Lots of deer, but not as much as VA and PA.
My wife just shot 2 fast 4 round 1.5 inch groups at 100 meters with open sights on a 7.62X39 AR heavy barrel preparing for her first deer hunt. I'm very pround of her. Just fixed deer tenderloins a buddy gave me for dinner Sunday night.
Lots of deer, but not as much as VA and PA.
My wife just shot 2 fast 4 round 1.5 inch groups at 100 meters with open sights on a 7.62X39 AR heavy barrel preparing for her first deer hunt. I'm very pround of her.
Just fixed deer tenderloins a buddy gave me for dinner Sunday night. Matt, hso,
I'm interested. My schedule probably won't be freed up till Spring for a trip like that.
There are many different schools of thought about CQB techniques. There is a lot of good stuff out there and a lot of crap...I apologize for taking the discussion in that direction, this is a civilian forum and we don't need to discuss any CQB techniques here.
Jeff
I'm interested. My schedule probably won't be freed up till Spring for a trip like that.
There are many different schools of thought about CQB techniques. There is a lot of good stuff out there and a lot of crap...I apologize for taking the discussion in that direction, this is a civilian forum and we don't need to discuss any CQB techniques here.
Jeff
OP
OP
Matthew Temkin
Member
That is close enough.
And I am sure that 7677 would like to attend, and he is from Ohio.
Who else is interested?
Jeff...10 4 on that.
I am actually leaning toward July or August since my schedule is getting tight as well.
And I am sure that 7677 would like to attend, and he is from Ohio.
Who else is interested?
Jeff...10 4 on that.
I am actually leaning toward July or August since my schedule is getting tight as well.
August hot, humid, baaaad in ET for playing anywhere but the lake or mountains.
July not as bad as August.
If May is possible let me know.
July not as bad as August.
If May is possible let me know.
Hot, humid?? hso I'm shocked? Do the bad guys all take July and August off in ET? lol
Sorry couldn't resist. Your post just brought back a memory from a Yearly Training Conference I was part of once where I actually had a Sergeant Major suggest that it might hurt retention to go to the field a lot in the 2d quarter (Jan, Feb, Mar) because it would be uncomfortable. I couldn't resist and made a statement about armies going into Winter quarters pretty much stopped after the 1840s.
Jeff
Do the bad guys all take July and August off in ET? lolSorry couldn't resist. Your post just brought back a memory from a Yearly Training Conference I was part of once where I actually had a Sergeant Major suggest that it might hurt retention to go to the field a lot in the 2d quarter (Jan, Feb, Mar) because it would be uncomfortable. I couldn't resist and made a statement about armies going into Winter quarters pretty much stopped after the 1840s.
Jeff
Jeff,
Ya also gotta remember that I'm a wimpy little geeky civilian working in Oak Ridge most of my life. I hardly saw daylight for most of a decade before I got my present job.
Heck, I grew up here and never moved away. Cold, wet are fine with me. Temp gets above 85 and I start to look for a nice cool rock in the shade to crawl under.
Well, yeah. See, it's too hot and humid for BGs.
Ya also gotta remember that I'm a wimpy little geeky civilian working in Oak Ridge most of my life. I hardly saw daylight for most of a decade before I got my present job.
Heck, I grew up here and never moved away. Cold, wet are fine with me. Temp gets above 85 and I start to look for a nice cool rock in the shade to crawl under.
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OP
Matthew Temkin
Member
May could be tough since I coach baseball & girls softball and that is prime time.
Plus my wedding anniv. is in late May.
Now don't tell me that you Southern boys are afraid of a little heat...
Heck, last August I moved my family into a new apartment during a 100+ degree heat wave.
How about mid-late July?
September?
Plus my wedding anniv. is in late May.
Now don't tell me that you Southern boys are afraid of a little heat...
Heck, last August I moved my family into a new apartment during a 100+ degree heat wave.
How about mid-late July?
September?
I always like the high position when #3 in a stack. You won't sweep your buddies because #1 and #2 are going opposite directions. When they split, gravity drops your muzzle in between them in the center of your primary sector. I've never heard of "indoor ready" but I've probably done it...new terms for things are always coined by someone. I'd like to see a pic of it as well.
strambo,
Nothing wrong with using it when entering a room. But when moving down a corridor and making unexpected contact, you will have more trouble safely bringing your weapon into action then from indoor ready. Like I said, it's fast but it you haven't worked together a lot, and someone moves one way when you're expecting him to go the other, it can be pretty unsafe.
But then there are all kinds of people doing all kinds of things and sometimes I think only good luck is protecting them
Matt,
A few years back I was in a class where they taught a point shooting method with a long gun where you placed the buttstock square in your sternum and turned your entire body towards the threat like the turret of a tank. We worked it with simunitions in the class, I later tried it on the range with my AR and my FAL. It works, but I didn't think it allowed enough mobility to react fast. It was taught as a method to teach patrol officers how to make very fast hits with a long gun in an active shooter situation.
Are you familiar with that? I think it came from across the pond as well.
Jeff
Nothing wrong with using it when entering a room. But when moving down a corridor and making unexpected contact, you will have more trouble safely bringing your weapon into action then from indoor ready. Like I said, it's fast but it you haven't worked together a lot, and someone moves one way when you're expecting him to go the other, it can be pretty unsafe.
But then there are all kinds of people doing all kinds of things and sometimes I think only good luck is protecting them
Matt,
A few years back I was in a class where they taught a point shooting method with a long gun where you placed the buttstock square in your sternum and turned your entire body towards the threat like the turret of a tank. We worked it with simunitions in the class, I later tried it on the range with my AR and my FAL. It works, but I didn't think it allowed enough mobility to react fast. It was taught as a method to teach patrol officers how to make very fast hits with a long gun in an active shooter situation.
Are you familiar with that? I think it came from across the pond as well.
Jeff
Yeah, that would not be good. I just used it on entry. Can get 3 muzzles in near simultaneously.
The sternum/center method sounds like "CAR" Center Axis Relock. Never tried it, I just try to square my shoulders on the target at minimum. Seems that method would work well with an MP5 on a center point type sling.
OP
OP
Matthew Temkin
Member
Jeff..the sternum/belt buckle method was taught in WW2 with short weapons, such as the M 3 Greasegun.
When I first fired the MP 5 in Sweden it had the telescoping stock and the sternum method works very well both in semi and full auto mode.
Applegate also mentions it in his book ( placing the butt against the belt buckle area)with a full stocked rifle, but warns against it's use as unnatural and hard to assume in battle gear.
I agree with Applegate on this.
In my carbine class some officers had M4's with telescoping stocks so I showed them this technique (which is the 5th method of shooting a long gun that I mention in my course outline) and it works very well..especially when used with a 3 point sling.
Re muzzle up....the Brits only used that for stacking up...and as Strambo said, is used for the # 2-3 men so as not muzzle their comrades.
During the actual assault other ready positions are used.
Strambo....indoor ready has the muzzle in tight and pointed very near to the toes.
When I first fired the MP 5 in Sweden it had the telescoping stock and the sternum method works very well both in semi and full auto mode.
Applegate also mentions it in his book ( placing the butt against the belt buckle area)with a full stocked rifle, but warns against it's use as unnatural and hard to assume in battle gear.
I agree with Applegate on this.
In my carbine class some officers had M4's with telescoping stocks so I showed them this technique (which is the 5th method of shooting a long gun that I mention in my course outline) and it works very well..especially when used with a 3 point sling.
Re muzzle up....the Brits only used that for stacking up...and as Strambo said, is used for the # 2-3 men so as not muzzle their comrades.
During the actual assault other ready positions are used.
Strambo....indoor ready has the muzzle in tight and pointed very near to the toes.
The guy in the pictures I sent advocates the muzzel up position so that you can use the weapon as a H2H tool while going though a building. I'm not sure that it's reasonable or not.
As a solo or lead clearing position I don't see why you don't lead with the muzzel forward and in close and if a BG is around a corner and goes for the gun you can step back aligning him with the muzzel and shoot him off the gun. If the weapon is up in guard position you might block with it, but you've given away the advantage that the gun provides you over a good short staff.
Why don't we take the party plans to PMs so we don't bore the rest of the members with my whineing?
As a solo or lead clearing position I don't see why you don't lead with the muzzel forward and in close and if a BG is around a corner and goes for the gun you can step back aligning him with the muzzel and shoot him off the gun. If the weapon is up in guard position you might block with it, but you've given away the advantage that the gun provides you over a good short staff.
Why don't we take the party plans to PMs so we don't bore the rest of the members with my whineing?
7677
Member
Count me in!
brownie0486
Member
I'm in as well.
Brownie
Brownie
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Matthew Temkin
Member
Roger that, 7677.
This should be most interesting...
This should be most interesting...
JMusic
member
I want to play.:
Jim
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