Holding a Threat at Gunpoint with a 1911?

[GEM]

Human factors folks have clearly found that a startle or your own movement can cause a trigger pull a large proportion of single and DA triggers.

Finger off.

Safety - even the well practiced can forget to activate the safety. You see it once in awhile at competitons. Not that I would ever -

But a friend's fancy safety fell off his gun when he drew and thumbed it.

 

[AZ PAUL]

All of my training has told me if I have one (or more) at gun point, its with the safety off, and finger off the trigger.

 

[Blackstone]

Tough question. Safety would definitely be off, as the way I grip my CZ, my thumb is resting on the safety. As for finger. I honestly don't know. I've not trained for SD anyway, given the country I'm in.

 

[Kleanbore]

GEM's comments should answer the question about the trigger finger.

Let's now address some harder questions:

1. How do you hold your firearm?
2. Where do you point it?
3. What do you say to the perps?
4. Under what circumstancess might you fire?
5. What do you do to reduce the risk of your being shot by an accomplice or a first reponder?

And there are more.

Unless one has a pretty good grasp on each of these, one really shouldn't even think about "holding a threat at gunpoint", with a 1911 or with anything else.

 

[winterhorse290]

1 up
2 center of mass
3 nothing
4 he,s in my house, dumb question
5 check the house for other bgs sit on the front porch and call the popo.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by winterhorse290:

1 [How do you hold your firearm?] up
2 [Where do you point it?] center of mass
3 [What do you say to the perps?] nothing
4 [Under what circumstancess might you fire?] he,s in my house, dumb question
5 [What do you do to reduce the risk of your being shot by an accomplice or a first reponder?] check the house for other bgs sit on the front porch and call the popo.

That's zero out of five.

One more time, unless one has a pretty good grasp on each of these, one really shouldn't even think about "holding a threat at gunpoint", with a 1911 or with anything else.

And one more time, one can get some very good training on the subject. This time I'll save people the trouble of looking for it themselves.

It's MAG-20/Classroom – Armed Citizens’ Rules of Engagement. See this.

 

[Jim K]

The problem is a more basic one. The armed citizen can use lethal force against an immediate, dire threat to his life or health or those of other innocent persons.

But short of lethal force, the average person has few options. Police have an escalating series of weapons, with lethal force as the most effective, but last choice. A police officer carries Mace, a baton/blackjack, a Taser, and a pistol, as well as the means of restricting a suspect's movements after arrest (handcuffs). He/she is generally allowed to use deadly force to prevent the escape of a person known or reasonably presumed to be a felon.

But a citizen who draws a gun, then tries to hold someone at gun point, has few options. If the "suspect" simply flips the citizen the bird and walks away, there is no justification for opening fire; the threat, if it existed, is gone. Only if the "suspect" has committed a felony in the presence of the citizen might lethal force be justifiable, and that is arguable. ("Citizens arrest" is a non-starter; few citizens know how to make a lawful arrest and an attempt to do so could result in a felon going free.)

The armed citizen can defend himself (whether carrying the gun is legal or not is another issue and irrelevant to the question of self defense) but has no powers of arrest, and no way of holding anyone short of shooting him. That is the basic problem, not where the trigger finger should be or not be.

Jim

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Jim K: But a citizen who draws a gun, then tries to hold someone at gun point, has few options. If the "suspect" simply flips the citizen the bird and walks away, there is no justification for opening fire; the threat, if it existed, is gone. Only if the "suspect" has committed a felony in the presence of the citizen might lethal force be justifiable, and that is arguable.

That. of course, is the underlying truth of the whole discussion.

("Citizens arrest" is a non-starter; few citizens know how to make a lawful arrest and an attempt to do so could result in a felon going free.)

And/or in serious ciil and/or criminal sanctions.

But if you're going to try it, learn how, or risk the consequences.

 

[45_auto]

The armed citizen can defend himself (whether carrying the gun is legal or not is another issue and irrelevant to the question of self defense) but has no powers of arrest, and no way of holding anyone short of shooting him. That is the basic problem, not where the trigger finger should be or not be.

I know personally know 2 citizens who have used their weapons to hold a criminal until the police arrived. I know 2 others who have had a criminal run off when their weapon was pointed at the criminal. Possibly the criminal wasn't aware of the law, or possibly the criminal believed that the citizen didn't know the law and would shoot them.

Doesn't really matter in either case. However, I can assure you that where their trigger finger was located is a very basic problem that they had hopefully addressed before they needed their weapon.

 

[sidheshooter]

The experts tell me that if I ever draw my self-defense weapon, chances are pretty good I WON'T need to fire it. So, when I carry a 1911 I am likely to be pulling a single action pistol, wiping the safety off on the way up, then NOT shooting. Since there is a pretty good chance I won't HAVE to shoot, what do I do next?

Kleanbore's advocation of MAG-20 brings us sort of full circle to the OP's original post. In my own notes from the main man Mas himself, he prefaces the whole block of instruction on the OP's point (no pun intended): approximately 13 out of 14 times (D.O.J.) to 33 out of 40 (G. Kleck) no shot is fired. Take away the events where just putting a hand on the holstered gun causes a change of heart and adding in the statistic that 70-80 percent of home invaders/burglars have weapons (again, from Mas' notes/interviews) and we have the probability of a situation where there are justifiably sights on the BG, but time is standing still before the trigger break.

Unless one is indifferent to shooting people, prudence dictates training for this potential, and I'd rather folks hear it directly from Mas or an affiliated instructor than on the Internet, so I'm with KB on this one regarding MAG-20.

Ultimately, there is a very good possibility that you *will* (by definition) be taking someone at point, if only for an extremely short time -and, of course, the shorter the better; meaning that I am also with HSO about telling them to shag out of my crib as soon as it is feasible to do so.

 

[Cricoid]

My CCW instructor put it like this:

"You should never pull your weapon unless you fear for your life and absolutely have to. If you have to pull it, you should be shooting it when it comes out."

 

[X-Rap]

you should be shooting it when it comes out."

That Samurai mentality always gets me. Whats wrong can't you re holster the gun without smoke coming from the barrel. It's not so bat that some instructors say it, it's that some people take it so literally.

 

[Sam1911]

"You should never pull your weapon unless you fear for your life and absolutely have to. If you have to pull it, you should be shooting it when it comes out."

This is the trouble with brief classroom instruction like most CCW classes can give.

The instructors have to (or only know to) boil crucial concepts down into truthy sound-bites that get most of a good point across to the student, but really don't have time, inclination (or understanding themselves) to do a better job of explaining these very important ideas.

We get that sort of thing all the time, and it really shows poorly on what we're coming to see as the "average" CCW instructor:

"If you pull your gun, you should be shooting!"
"If you shoot, shoot to KILL!"
"We've got the Castle Doctrine, so if he's in your house, he's FAIR GAME!"
"Don't talk to the police!"

Really they're just a short step above the old chestnuts about keeping a "throw-down gun/knife," or making sure his corpse lands INSIDE your house.

 

[X-Rap]

My first class back 32 yrs ago the Co. Sheriff even did the old drag em back inside thing.
More recently a Deputy claimed that if there was a discharge from a gun hitting the deck everyone looks for the Glock. He was a Gov mod. fan of course.

 

[Jim K]

A wise person once said that if you wanted to know the law, ask anyone but a cop. I was told that one department spent more time on training on how to deliver a baby than they did on the law, and I don't doubt it. Police are taught legal generalizations (and often taught wrong) and those aspects of the law most common to their duties. Few get anything beyond the basics.

But an even worse place to learn the law than a police academy class is the internet. I don't know how many times I have seen that "drag him inside" advice.

One of the worst ideas was from a man who posted that he practiced turning around, automatically drawing and firiing as he turned, in case "I hear a noise behind me." I support the right to bear arms, but I don't want to be in the same county as that trigger happy lunatic.

Jim

 

[scaatylobo]

WHAT

I have read many of the posters and I have to say that it obvious that NONE [ ok 99 % ] have ever actually held anyone at gunpoint.

Yes I have many times and I am getting a good laugh from the misinformation that I hope none follow.

get trained or dont bother to even carry a gun,in fact dont bother to own a tool that you cant use properly.

Try using a chain saw in place of that gun you dont understand,or the laws that go along with its use.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I'm not in favor of the idea of "holding at gunpoint" at all, FWIW. Trying it is more likely to lead to various problems, trying it with the idea that there is some sort of responsibility for the armed citizen to keep a felon on the scene, even more so.

Learn how to get a good description of the perp and remember it (go top down or bottom up, detail by detail) till the LEOs arrive, and give it to them. I'd be inclined to worry more about that and less about trying to keep the perp on the scene, if I hadn't been forced by circumstance to shoot him already, the perp fleeing is the best outcome. "Holding at gunpoint" is not my job, and there is no such thing as citizen's arrest in NC, Gomer Pyle on the Andy Griffith Show notwithstanding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9efgLHgsBmM

 

[coolluke01]

One more nod to keeping the finger off the trigger.

Last week at a match I was moving from one point to another during the corse of a stage. I had been watching and noticed many moved with a finger in the trigger housing. I commented to the RO and they made a point to remind shooters to keep the finger out. Durning my turn I reached the second position and I slipped and fell on my butt. It had just started to sprinkle and the grass was getting a little slick.
I was able to keep my gun pointed down range and I had my finger off the trigger. This would have been most likely a ND as when I hit the ground I could feel my muscles tense as I gripped the gun harder.

In a situation like this with adrenaline and tunnel vision you could get bumped or startled. The natural reaction is to tense up and that could lead to a finger pull.

 

[el Godfather]

Dont draw until you plan on shooting. No need for creating a face off and then getting confused and probably shot

 

[Frank Ettin]

Dont draw until you plan on shooting. No need for creating a face off and then getting confused and probably shot

It is always entirely possible that one will draw, having correctly concluded there is a need to shoot, only for the situation to immediately change (BG splits or surrenders) to obviate the need to shoot.

 

[jimbo555]

"Just remember when you pull the trigger,the bullets come out very very fast."

 

[allaroundhunter]

Dont draw until you plan on shooting. No need for creating a face off and then getting confused and probably shot

So an intruder is 10 ft away with his back turned but you can't see his hands. Do you shoot him in the back or do you keep your gun holstered? Or are you going to be the dumb one who waits until he turns around and finds out that he has a knife to try to react? By that time you will be dead, and your gun will still be holstered.

That was just bad advice, plain and simple.

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[GLOOB]

^In your own home, sure. Hopefully, you have the gun drawn before you even see the intruder!

 

[el Godfather]

Frank and Allrounder
Plan to shoot doesnot mean draw and immediate pull the trigger. If the situation changes like BG surrenders upon your drawing the weapon, let the bastard live.

If BG is turned with his back, i would not creep up on him and then assess the sutuation when he turns as even if my gun is drawn his sudden action will and can cause problem.

Get position draw and plan to shoot the bastard as soon as he turns if he has a gun. Ask questions later although you wont get any answer.

If he turns and is unarmed. Most likely he will surrender- again let him live.

Dont draw without planing to shoot. Mind should be clear and focused to use deadly force unless situation dictates otherwise. Common sense.

 

[allaroundhunter]

El Godfather, now you are going back on what you had previously said. Do you shoot him when you draw your gun as you planned on? Or do you let him live if he surrenders and cause a confrontation like you said to avoid?

As soon as he "surrenders", you are not in control of how the situation will play out. The next move is his to make. After you tell him to leave (or to lay down, legs crossed, palms up, and looking away, etc.), it is his choice whether to cut his losses, or continue with what he was doing and try to kill you in order to do so and make you stop him like you are threatening to do. There will be no avoiding confrontation in the event that you come across a home invader.