Hollowpoint ammo and headshots?

[indie]

i was thinking about what happens if i'm ever in the wrong place at the wrong time, or even at home and I were to confront an armed BG with body armor, or even so hopped up on PCP or something that he is not incapacitated quickly with center mass hits. Or even say, if he were to take cover behind heavy furniture and return fire..

I plan on carrying (when i get my CWP) and loading at home with JHP ammo. 9mm, 45acp, and 38 special +p.

In the event of having to take a head shot God forbid I ever have to use such force, would Hollowpoints penetrate a skull in these calibers?

I was thinking of keeping an extra mag loaded with FMJ in my semi-automatics.

Any knowledge or informed opinions?

 

[BlackJackal]

I have no doubt they would, but i have herd that a 9mm round came threw a windshield and hit the BG in the head and didnt penetrate his skull, but he surenderd.. was fired from a sub-gun i believe.. so 9" barrel maybe, and what are u talking about maybe 4" ? hmm.. lets see what others think first i dont wanna steer u in the wroung direction..

 

[indie]

well, the weapons i intend to carry once i get my permit will both be less than 4"

3.6 inch 9mm
and 2 inch 38 special



i'm less worried about my 4.5 inch barrell ruger p90 45acp, which will be my primary HD gun.


But i was just wanted to know if a few center of mass shots from a hollowpoint dont do the job, what next, if im loaded up with Hollow points?

 

[mljdeckard]

You are correct in your reasonings.

You understand that the skull, especially the front of the skull is not a great place to shoot someone. It is the most armored part of the body, with lots of cavities, angles, and spongy bone. A LOT of people get hit in the face and live to tell about it. This is why it's not the first option.

A backup magazine of FMJ is not at all a bad idea, IF YOU FEEL like you are able to discern distinctions like that when there is hot lead flying. We keep this stuff simple for a reason. Clint Smith would say, there is no reason to mess with a gun that is running correctly. If you have a gun, it's running, and you are in the fight, unnecessary tactical reloads mean that you are taking apart a working gun in the middle of the fight. You MUST ABSOLUTELY know that tac reload drill cold if you are thinking about splitting these kinds of hairs in a firefight.

I would also nudge you in the direction of more Clint Smith advice; "A handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place." Think hard about getting a rifle and or a shotgun. Pistol calibers are inferior for HD/SD. When you have the option, you should always reach for the long gun first.

 

[bruss01]

Word of advice -

Handload your practice ammo. DO NOT handload actual defensive ammo. It makes it impossible to defend yourself in court when the ballistics investigators aren't able to duplicate the way you say the shoot went down. Use only off-the-shelf, over-the-counter storebought ammo for real world defensive use.

There's actually a guy doing time in jail for shooting his wife (who used his light target handloads to commit suicide) because they said there was no way she could have shot herself with that round considering the amt of GSR on her, and fingered him for the crime. I think it was a light .38 special load, in .38 +p brass. They relied on +p loading data based on the brass recovered. If it had been off-the-shelf, they could have easily duplicated the load used and exonerated him. BTW he did tell them they were his personal handloads but the word of an accused murderer vs. the testimony of the ballistics lab, not much of a contest now is it.

I have a lot of confidence in flat nosed revolver rounds when it comes to skull penetration. I don't know how warranted that belief is, but I tend to think getting a direct hit probably matters more than what round is used. 9mm is a pretty good round, but don't count on it for much penetration expecially after going through obstacles like drywall or auto glass. That takes away a lot of the steam.

 

[Treo]

Weather a hollow point penetrates the skull or not , I bet the impact will change the BGs plans for the day.

That said a groin shot will probably hook your boy up.

 

[isp2605]

You're under estimating performance of ammo. The skull is not a GI helmet. Bullets go right thru skulls. When I was a kid helping my uncle in his butcher shop we put down numerous hogs and cattle every week using a .22 short to the head and both of those animals have a lot thicker and harder skull than humans. After getting into LE I've seen several head shots with all kinds of ammo and calibers after going thru barriers just as windows, windshields, and car bodies. I've never seen any of them bounce off anyone's head.

 

[LKB3rd]

Even if it didn't penetrate, I'd imagine it would knock them out if it hit em in the skull.

 

[Jaenak]

Yes. They will all penetrate...as long as the BG isn't wearing a helmet.


Edit: ISP2650 just reminded me. I lived for 3.5 years on a farm my parents rented from a family friend in western Washington state. He had to sent a huge angus bull to market because it was too hell bent on death and destruction of anything in sight. He called the butcher and the butcher showed up with a small rifle. He rested the front of the rifle on a fence post, whistled at the bull, and when the bull turned his head to look at the butcher, he put one .22Magnum round absolutely perfectly between his eyes. The bull went down where he stood and was dead before his knees buckled. A .22Magnum round is less powerful and less effective than any common pistol round and a bull's skull is WAY harder and thicker than any human skull could ever hope to be. Just buy your favorite pistol, maybe get some JHP, practice practice practice and you'll be all right. I pray you'll never have to use it though.

 

[esq_stu]

Some 9mm HP rounds are known for excellent penetration. For example, CorBon DPX. At least one website reports penetration of steel followed by gelatin for various loads. The one I know of is stoppingpower.net. http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8303 and other threads on the site.

 

[TAB]

ugh, I've seen a 357( yes he could have been shooting 38s) at close range fail to pentrait a guys forehead. It can and does happen. When I say i've seen it happen, I was close enough to feel the muzzle/ gap blast. With in bent arms length of the gun. Its a day I will never forget.

 

[conw]

They were having a PCP and body armor buyback down the street yesterday - I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[NukemJim]

In the event of having to take a head shot God forbid I ever have to use such force, would Hollowpoints penetrate a skull in these calibers?

No one can say for certain. Too much depends on angle of the shot relative to the skull, type of ammo, intervening materials etc... from my understanding it is not just a matter of penetration but rather deflection of the bullet from it's path. Jim Cirillo* of NYPD fame used to load and use special ammo for the 1st round he would shoot the BG with (Backwards HP IIRC). He later went on to develop a special bullet for head shots. He felt that a FMJ was not optimum for skull shots and would deflect easier than some hollow point designs. I have also read of other theories including some who feel that as a HP deforms it is less likely to deflect. Cannot recall the author, sorry.

Please do not get me wrong. The probability is good that a round (either FMJ or HP) will penetrate the skull. There are lots of dead people shot in the skull.

But there are also lots of people shot in the skull that are still alive and funtioning.

1st there are those where the bullet was deflected by the skull. I've personally seen a CT scan (I work in a hospital doing medical imaging) where the bullet entered the foreheadl, was deflected off of the skullk, and exited in the back of the head. He was fine except for a couple of relatively minor scalp flesh wound and a horrible headache not even a concussion.

2nd there are those who are shot in the skull where the skull is penetrated but the path of the wound tract misses the brain. While all brain shots are skull shots not all skull shots are brain shots. There are lots of structure in the head that are not brain and hitting them will probably not stop the fight.

I have heard of people having a magazine of FMJ for better pentration through interving material (furniture, walls, excessive obesity and or musculature). As mentioned before some feel that HP are less likely to be deflected when attempting head shots, it is a problem of possible deflection and correct bullet placement/angle rather than strict penetration.

NukemJim


*See
http://www.amazon.com/SECRETS-MASTER-GUNFIGHTER-Cirillos-Advanced/dp/B000P1SEBQ

 

[Glamdring]

Hollowpoints in normal self defense calibers (ie 38+p or bigger) will most likely penetrate skull better than FMJ or RNL. Because Flat Tips (meplat) are more likely to bite or dig into a round object (the skull is round from many aspects. And a hp is functionally a flat tip.

If you want to learn more about this get Cirillo's book or do research on hunting handgun bullets like the LBT design.

 

[mljdeckard]

I will say, with absolute certainty two things. One, no pistol caliber is sufficient for personal defense in the first place. MOST people who are hit with a single pistol shot will RUN AWAY.

Second, no other part of the human body is harder to penetrate for incapacitation than the front of the skull.

A non-critical hit from a .22 will 'change the BG's plans for the day'. Doesn't mean it will immediately stop his aggression, especially when wounded and confused.

 

[Hook686]

I see no problem with loading my magazine with a mix ... some 147 grain HP, some 147 grain jacketed flat nose and even some 147 grain jacketed round nose.

At short range, in practice, they all seem to shoot about the same.

 

[indie]

thanks for all of the great responses. I think that at least when i am carrying 9mm, i will keep +p fmj in the spare mag.

 

[strambo]

I don't imagine the "shoot 2, it didn't work...change magazines to FMJ and shoot the head" drill working too well in any real world violent conflict.

The average person could fire 6 shots to the head in the time it takes to change a mag. I'm sure 1 out of the 6 would do it.

 

[indie]

of course, i would never drop a semi-full magazine in the middle of a firefight.

But that being said. If a mag of 9mm hp's dont stop the firefight, whether it be from inability to penetrate or whatever, cant hurt to switch to FMJ.

 

[Loosedhorse]

indie: short answer is "yup!"

Any city ER doctor will tell you those JHP (or maybe SWCLHP for .38) rounds penetrate the skull with great regularity. However, the skull up top is more sloped than you think, and an upper head shot can glance off the skull--the bullet will still make a bloody mess, and may incapcitate. That's why the IPSC targets have the A-zone in the nose/eyes area, not higher.

I'm surprised the words "Rhodesian" or "Mozambique" didn't come up--maybe too obvious, or not quite on your q's topic. Great for practice and (G-d forbid) actual defense: Two in the chest (QUICK!) and a pause (to take careful aim, not to admire the first two shots), then one in the head. There's only one reason not to deliver the third shot: attacker is down and out with the first two.

Everyone knows that a CNS shot is more effective than a center of mass shot, but the head is stuck on this swivelly thing called a neck, and people seem to instinctively move it around to get out of your line of fire.

Two thoughts from Clint Smith: "We shoot center of mass, not because it's the best but because it's the biggest." and "Shoot what's available for as long as it's available until something better becomes available."

 

[Old Guy]

FMJ at 1250 FPS

Canadian IVI 9mm FMJ, at 1250fps, would be a good second magazine to go to, first one to go would be more of the same, 127g ranger, the # 3 hardball.
Specifically for penetration, in car type of load.

Real close... The nose! from the front. Big hole in the bone there! It also stops you looking into the eyes.

 

[Grey_Mana]

Just my opinion, but it seems the potato chip rule of self-defense applies: Just one isn't enough.

If the first bullet doesn't penetrate the skull, hit that bullet with 3 or 4 more and push it on through.

The forehead is armored. The nose, eyes, and mouth are holes to the brain.
The cheek and jaw bones are relatively thin - hitting them won't kill but it will be quite distracting. If you shoot somebody in the face, you should be able to stay inside their OOLA loop just by repeating the process.

 

[innerpiece]

moving target, COM...
still target, CNS....

imo, Id shoot for the mouth for a foreward facing headshot, and Id be pretty confident it would be effective.

I know some people have "hard heads"... but I dont think anyone dishes out a headshout WITHOUT the intent of knocking the reciever flat in the first shot... and theres a good reason for that!

 

[twinhairdryers]

The type of ammo isn't going to matter as much as entry angle

The angle which the round is going when it hits the globe is a whole lot more important than what is on the tip of the bullet. I wouldn't worry too much about what load you have when aiming at a BG with body armor. A stacked mag mix is smart though, similar to us shotgun defense folks who like stacking buck shot and slugs of similar recoil, with even lighter shot on top, then buck, and the slug when they are further away in that order.

If you ask all the dead guys and living guys which they preferred to be hit with on a head shot from a 9mm that was not a handload or squib, I think you'll get a mixed bag, but in general nobody really liked it that much or were fighting much afterwards. There is way too much emphasis put on what ammo you have rather than how close to a 3" grouping pattern you can consistently hit in 3 quick shots. If your first one doesn't work, and you have two closely placed follow ups, they will altogether penetrate any skull, some even with BP face shields.

 

[Loosedhorse]

+1 twinhairdryers

Placement is everything.

Still, if asked if FMJ or HP for head shot, I give a slight nod to HPs.

Some of you may recall Jim Cirillo's "Pin Grabber" bullets (see thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4779283). They were pointy HPs, based on his real experience of bullets skidding off bowling pins during matches. Later came out with similar defensive bullets.

Neither is still made: don't know if it means that they were too non-PC, or no one does bowling pins any more--or they just didn't work.