Hollowpoints and +P

[CDW4ME]

124 gr. 9mm HST +P penetrates 14.5'' of gel after denim and expands to .60

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COVoBwR1oww

A standard pressure 9mm FMJ will penetrate about twice as far.

 

[Swampman]

I got a couple of PM's asking about the "Gecko45" reference in my earlier post, so here's a link to information about the toughest security guard that ever duct taped Class IV armor plates to his back...

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas

 

[Black Knight]

I don't know the so called armed security guard you are talking to but I have roughly 15 years experience as an armed security officer, private investigator, and 12 years experience as a state approved armed security officer firearms instructor. I also have 21 years experience as a federal police officer and 6 years as a police firearms instructor. To put it mildly your armed security guard is a fool. Every where I have worked where we carried 38 Specials we were either issued +P ammo or it was highly recommended. If he doesn't want to carry the most effective ammo for stopping an assailant then he should either not carry a weapon or find another line of work.

 

[Shaq]

+P's have higher velocity & expansion of JHP's is partially dependent on velocity, so I wouldn't consider them useless.

 

[antiquus]

LEO's carry rounds designed to penetrate barriers. Those same rounds have a hard time stopping in a body, it's just physics. Rounds which will stop in a body are either light bullets, or slow bullets. JHP's help immensely in stopping the round in the body - converting kinetic energy of the bullet first to deforming the bullet, then forcing much higher resistance as the bullet travels through the body, which is why LEO's use them - not for making a larger wound and 'larger blood channels' although they are probably fine with that.

I'm not a cop, I'm a civilian and I use non +P JHP's in most things I carry. I'm not defeating barriers, if there is a barrier there it probably suits me fine. Also my shot is much more likely to be frontal, and running in any other direction other than towards me isn't a shooting offense.

 

[Warp]

Security guard is full of it and should not be listened to for anything whatsoever concerning firearms at this point.

There is nothing about ammo being +P, alone, that makes it more likely to over penetrate an attacker.

Anything that penetrates enough to reliably stop an attacker carries some degree of risk of over penetration.

Only about 20% of shots fired by civilians in self defense (to include law enforcement officers on officer involved shootings) hit their target. Most shots miss. Most people would do well to worry a lot more about putting the rounds on target than about rounds on target going through and continuing on to harm somebody.

Rounds going through an attacker and continuing on to harm another person are, in the real world, rare.

Often times, all else equal, the +P round will penetrate LESS, because it will have higher velocity and thus expand more = penetrate less.

 

[tdstout]

I got a couple of PM's asking about the "Gecko45" reference in my earlier post, so here's a link to information about the toughest security guard that ever duct taped Class IV armor plates to his back...

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas

Wow, just...wow

 

[Telekinesis]

my coworker was involved in some on duty shootings and does not like +P because he says it may very well go through.

He thought FMJ was ACP.

Maybe you shouldn't take ammo advice from a guy who doesn't know the difference between FMJ and ACP?

Anyway, +P usually only adds a couple hundred feet per second to the velocity of the projectile. I wouldn't worry about it over penetrating much more than standard pressure loads.

The Four Rules still apply during a gunfight. Know what's beyond your target and try to do your best to have misses or over penetrations land someplace safe (I know that's not always possible).

 

[Davenj8]

FBI test are for 12 inch min 18 inch max penetration with expansion. That is more than the average 10 inch human torso. However, a fully expanded hollow point exiting a lightly clothed person without hitting bone at all will still have slowed down enough that unless the person was bear hugging the criminal they may be wounded but more than likely not killed unless the unlucky strike of head or spine. The exiting bullet flight would also be quite erratic and who knows the direction.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

+P loadings are not really comparable between different calibers because the standard SAMMI pressures are not equally 'hot' (for lack of a better term) to start with owing to a number of factors, many tied into the history of the cartridges early use and development. For example, the standard pressure for .38 spl is relatively anemic and the +P loading brings the cartridge into the acceptable range for self-defense/duty use--almost everyone who carries a .38 uses +P ammo. In contrast, standard pressure for 9mm is pretty high to start with and many folks carry standard pressure defensive loads. It's on the individual to know the specific performance of what he (or she) is carrying and to be trained to handle their weapon.

 

[skoro]

Armed guard says only dummies carry +P because they will go through someone no matter if its a 9 or 45, HP or FMJ, or hits bone or flesh. Does that mean HPs in .357 are pointless?

Skoro says armed guard is full of brown stinky stuff.

 

[Confederate]

Hollowpoint ammo is the way to go. The extra power is going to give it some oooomph, too. Fearing that the.357 will over-penetrate might be a concern in apartment buildings, but I use .38 +P mostly indoors. On cross country trips on the road, I use the .357 125gr JHP.

 

[Troy800]

Penitration has more to do with bullet design. A premium ammo will match bullet design and velocity to get optimal performance. Most good SD ammo is bonded FMJ and will expand reliably transfering its energy to the target. Higher velosity norally results in rapid expansion leaving a bigger wound cavity on its way through.

If his logic is a +P is too hot and overpenetrates then i guess rifles would be usless. I dont buy it.

Here is a link with some good information.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Personally, it seems to me that there is far more to worry about with respect to hitting your target in the first place as opposed to over penetration. All those bullets which don't hit what one is shooting at are of far more concern down range than those which do.

And anybody who thinks that they're going to hit their target with each and every round in a highly stressful self-defense situation is deluding themselves.

Pick a good JHP defense round with a proven track record for reliability, penetration, and expansion and carry with it.

 

[Rock185]

Yea, I get all my firearms and ammunition information from armed guards and tactical Mall Ninjas Gospel I tell Ya.