Home invasion situation…where to aim?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If you are defending your home a good longgun would be nice as it is much more effective than a handgun and usually more accurate as well.

I think you already understand the law in Texas pretty well and are covered legally if you have to shoot.

I've never shot anyone and don't pretend to know anything about the situation. However, my understanding is that even with a shot that destroys the heart entirely there is enough blood in the human circulatory system that a motivated attacker might continue to function for as long as 13 seconds before the body would shut down due to basic biology. As anyone with a shot timer can tell you, 13 seconds can be a very long time when shooting is going on.

We did some force-on-force scenarios at room distances based on the above assumptions. The rules were that head shots stopped the scenario immediately. Good torso shots started the countdown. Bad torso shots (anything not in the thoracic triangle) did nothing. In that scenario, using Simunitions equipped Glocks, people using headshots came away with a lot fewer hits than people who went center mass.

Now that is not to say this is a viable tactic or even a recommended one. I've got no basis for knowing which of the many assumptions we made in training might not play out quite that way in a real scenario. It did however give me something to think about. With a pretty good knowledge of what I am capable of with a pistol, if I feel a headshot is a viable option in a scenario, I think I would be inclined to take it. However, I wouldn't avoid shooting someone in the upper torso if I didn't have a good head shot available.

 

[engineer151515]

comment withdrawn.

 

[RioShooter]

COM with buckshot

2) If the decision is made, I WILL shoot to slide stop, but where to put the rounds?

I didn't realize a 12 ga. pump had slide lock. If you're HD weapon is not a 12 ga. pump loaded with buckshot, then you need to get one.

At that point, rack and fire until threat is neutralized.

 

[Meplat]

If you are defending your home a good longgun would be nice as it is much more effective than a handgun and usually more accurate as well.

I think you already understand the law in Texas pretty well and are covered legally if you have to shoot.

I've never shot anyone and don't pretend to know anything about the situation. However, my understanding is that even with a shot that destroys the heart entirely there is enough blood in the human circulatory system that a motivated attacker might continue to function for as long as 13 seconds before the body would shut down due to basic biology. As anyone with a shot timer can tell you, 13 seconds can be a very long time when shooting is going on.

We did some force-on-force scenarios at room distances based on the above assumptions. The rules were that head shots stopped the scenario immediately. Good torso shots started the countdown. Bad torso shots (anything not in the thoracic triangle) did nothing. In that scenario, using Simunitions equipped Glocks, people using headshots came away with a lot fewer hits than people who went center mass.

I saw an excellent post in an earlier thread about an encounter while in your home. Someone recommended that when holding someone at gunpoint, your muzzle and flashlight (you DO have a good high intensity flashlight, don't you? Invaluable for target verification and for blinding the home invader) should remain aimed at the perp's pelvis for the duration of the encounter. Aiming at the floor or ceiling is a bad idea, as this gives the perp the idea that you might not actually pull the trigger. Getting on target from either of these positions don't require a HUGE amount of time, but it also doesn't require a HUGE amount of time for someone to get within striking distance of you from a few feet. A muzzle aimed directly at "de boys" is a heck of a psychological deterrent to further aggression, and should he move and you have to fire, a direct hit to the family vault would cause all but the most crazed to cease hostilities immediately. A miss high would result in a hugely painful lower belly wound, allowing for immediate follow up shots if required, and a miss either left of right would result in a shattered hip bone, thus taking one side of a bipod out of commission, no matter what the attacker's state of mind.

First aid? I don't think so, thank you. I am NOT subjecting myself to the potential blood borne pathogenes anyone who was foolish enough to break into my home might be carrying. Should shooting become necessary, a hit to the pelvic area followed by a second tap to the chest should render first aid a moot point anyway. If he doesn't die outright, he's gonna bleed out in a matter of seconds. If you are justified in shooting, you are justified in killing.

 

[Ares45]

Shoot to stop the threat. Period.

Nuff said.

In the eyes of the law there is no such thing as a warning shot, just bad aim. Besides it's a waste of valuable ammo. The "serious bodily injury or reasonable fear of death" stuff applies here in NC. After several verbal warnings the BG gets it if he pursues the engagement. At that point you've got to figure he's not after your tv, he's after you.

Drunk and in the wrong house isn't my problem. After all the dead guy on the floor came thru three locked doors and one very loud alarm system.

Doesn't speak english. Not my problem. Kinda like the middle finger, a loaded shotgun pointed in your direction is the universal symbol for you're not welcome.

I'll also add that the aftermath is very likely to be worse than the actual incident. " My name is such-and-such, I am the homeowner. I was in fear for my life and shot that poor SOB to defend my life. I would like to speak to my lawyer". End of story. Name, rank, serial number as far as personal defense shootings go. Rinse, repeat until the cops are tired of hearing it. The law does not require you or anyone else to say anything until you have legal counsel. Anything you say can (and WILL) be held against you in a court of law.

 

[Ares45]

First aid? I don't think so, thank you.

Brawney, the quicker picker upper! "Would you mind not bleeding out on my expensive area rug, thank you."

Until the BG is pronounced dead by a medical examiner I'm not getting anywhere near arms length unless it's to sweep a weapon out of reach. That's why God created EMT's, carpet cleaning vans, and sheet rock repair men.

 

[jeepmor]

Which state is that legalese from.

[/quote=armoredman/] Tell ya lawyer to put THAT in his pipe and smoke it! The law is clear.[/QUOTE]

I really appreciate the fact that you posted this information, is it AZ info from the previous posts in this thread? This is exactly the information armed citizens should be abreast of since the consequences of any shooting, justified or not, are going to be arduous, time consuming and subject to much scrutinizing by the press.

Especially in Portland, Or.

jeepmor

 

[Meplat]

Brawney, the quicker picker upper! "Would you mind not bleeding out on my expensive area rug, thank you."

Until the BG is pronounced dead by a medical examiner I'm not getting anywhere near arms length unless it's to sweep a weapon out of reach. That's why God created EMT's, carpet cleaning vans, and sheet rock repair men.

Amen.

 

[JMusic]

I agree with Double Naught. I never reveled my position in an "obvious" encounter. I change the channel when I see some thug pointing a weapon and cops pull up shouting "Stop Police"! If someone wants fair have them take up boxing, when you are assaulted, be it at home or away get it over with, chatting just gives the other person the advantage.
Jim

 

[eastwood44mag]

One to the COM, one to the head, one in the wall to make it look like my aim sucks.

 

[Srigs]

1. You can shoot them right now! You informed them "warned them" not to come in and they did.

2. Shoot what is available to you. If it is a head then shoot it, if it is a torso shoot it and if it is a foot shoot it. Whole body - 4 to center mass then evaluated and then 4 head and then 4 pelvis! Then it is reload time (12 round mags)!!!

 

[rustymaggot]

A muzzle aimed directly at "de boys" is a heck of a psychological deterrent to further aggression, and should he move and you have to fire, a direct hit to the family vault would cause all but the most crazed to cease hostilities immediately. A miss high would result in a hugely painful lower belly wound, allowing for immediate follow up shots if required, and a miss either left of right would result in a shattered hip bone, thus taking one side of a bipod out of commission, no matter what the attacker's state of mind.

i disagree. shooting to wound is called mayhem and is against the law. aim at the jewels if you feel its prudent, but shoot for chest or head. shooting crotch is just mean and youll go down for it bigtime.

 

[1911 guy]

My situation.

Coming up my stairs, a 90 degree turn puts you in a hallway that leads to the bedrooms, one for me and my wife, one for our son. They are the only things upstairs worth killing or dying for. I will do so regardless of laws. You come up my stairs in the middle of the night, I'm going to cut you in half with a 12 guage. Jail is acceptable if it protects my family.

Legal discussions are fine, but morality trumps legality every time. If I can legally shoot someone but it's not moral, I'm wrong to shoot. If I have a moral responsibility to shoot, I am wrong not to. I swore a vow to a woman to protect and cherish her. The day my son was born I knew I'd walk through Hell on a Sunday morning before I let anything happen to him.

 

[pinetree64]

Center mass, e.g. just below the sternum. Head shots are for movies and offense. I worry about being sued by the family thus would keep every thing plain jane. I hear that a pevis shot wll drop a perp in their tracks.

I have a child, so there is no hide lock the door and wait. I hear a noise and it's identified as a perp, it's the pistol in waist band a 20g OU. Wife with phone and snubby moves to child's room. Yes I have a 12g but it is too big. I find my 20g, lighter, shorter, smaller, quicker, simpler than my Beretta 12 SA. Two shots of high brass 6's - from a quail trip - will get say "welcome" just fine.


tjg

 

[clt46910]

i disagree. shooting to wound is called mayhem and is against the law. aim at the jewels if you feel its prudent, but shoot for chest or head. shooting crotch is just mean and youll go down for it bigtime.

I disagree, I was taught many years ago to shoot for the pelvic girdle, especially with mulitble attackers up close. It will normally put someone down right now leaving you with one less attacker to deal with. Nothing mean about trying to stay alive.

As far as the law goes...I am a piss poor shot or in the excitement and confusion of the moment the gun went off before I could get it all the way up.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Pelvic shots will not drop a guy in his tracks. There are documented instances of people remaining mobile after taking a .50BMG through the pelvic girdle at short range.

Even if you did manage to achieve a result with your handgun that wasn't achieved with a 650gr projectile at close range in that case, you still have an attacker representing a lethal threat who is armed and conscious.

 

[Meplat]

i disagree. shooting to wound is called mayhem and is against the law. aim at the jewels if you feel its prudent, but shoot for chest or head. shooting crotch is just mean and youll go down for it bigtime.

Read of an incidence in a Memphis TN pawn shop, IIRC. Guy walks in, asks to see a .38, is handed the weapon, and proceeds to load it. Guy behind the counter finally realizes what it happening, pulls his own handgun and they proceed to go at it from the distance of 30" (or whatever the counter width was). Total: 12 shots fired. Number of hits? 0. Dunna think anyone is gonna be able to prove to the point of conviction that I meant to hit anyone in any given area, since the only information I intend to volunteer is "I thought I was going to die. I thought I was going to die. I thought I was going to die." I am certainly NOT going to be discussing my tactical reasoning behind my actions with people who might be using anything I say against me in a court of law. Mean? Screw that. Mean is breaking into a man's home while it's occupied. And since I think I mentioned following up with a second tap (or more) to COM, "shooting to wound" is not valid. Shooting to stop is what it's called.

 

[Meplat]

Pelvic shots will not drop a guy in his tracks. There are documented instances of people remaining mobile after taking a .50BMG through the pelvic girdle at short range.

Not doubting your word, and unlike the commercials for high speed internet, I've not been able to get to the "end of the internet" yet.

Could you point me in a direction where I could read of these documented cases? They might certainly change my mind about where to hold in a stressful situation.

Even if you did manage to achieve a result with your handgun that wasn't achieved with a 650gr projectile at close range in that case, you still have an attacker representing a lethal threat who is armed and conscious.

Not if the first shot were followed up with a second (or more if needed) subsequent taps at COM. Don't keep single shots for home defense. If he's armed, then all bets are off anyway. Much as I'd hate to do it, I wouldn't hestitate to fire at will at COM til the said armed invader was down for the count. I still maintain that the sight of a muzzle pointed at "the boys" could mitigate the need to pull the trigger in the first place in the case of an assailant who is not OBVIOUSLY armed, and is a darn good indicator of your attacker's frame of mind. If he's interested enough in doing you harm despite the possible loss of his preciousssss, you can be pretty sure that he full well intends to press the attack. And, you are ready to shoot from the position where the muzzle is pointed, or elevate and fire if you wish. I don't have any desire to shoot anyone anywhere. If it can be avoided, I will. Gary Kleck's study will bear out that in the vast majority of defensive uses of firearms, not a shot is fired.

 

[GoBrush]

Each states deadly force laws are different and I stongly recommend any one with a gun in their home to understand the law. In Utah you would be justified to use deadly force at the moment you discribed. As in any shoot dont shoot senerio target identification is still important do avoid shooting someone that you did not want shot its best to indentify target even in the dark.

My philosophy on shot placement is simple shoot for the center of mass twice if they don't go down go for the head. Of course this philosophy changes with mulitple targets or a hostage situation.

 

[ezypikns]

The person in the doorway may have something to say

about where you shoot them. I have no experience in these matters, but I would guess that with your level of stress and their level of stress, careful placement of shots may not be possible. They just might be "skippin' around so's to spile yer aim".

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Could you point me in a direction where I could read of these documented cases? They might certainly change my mind about where to hold in a stressful situation.

Go here:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/

Read every post in the archive by the user named "DocGKR". Not only will it be very informative on wound ballistics in general, it will also detail the .50BMG case I mentioned earlier.

ot if the first shot were followed up with a second (or more if needed) subsequent taps at COM.

If you have to solve the problem by shooting COM to end it; wouldn't you be better just starting off by shooting COM?

 

[azrael]

Where to aim??

Well this is my opinion only but it would seem to work...Aim at there face...If you shoot them 4-5times in the face they will tend to change there mind a bit about wanting to be there..

My HD weapon is a Ghost ring Mossy 590 loaded with buckshot btw...

 

[Cosmoline]

--In most states, yes that would be a good shot on the facts stated

--Center of mass.

 

[Meplat]

Go here:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/

Read every post in the archive by the user named "DocGKR". Not only will it be very informative on wound ballistics in general, it will also detail the .50BMG case I mentioned earlier.

'Preciate it. I will peruse this guy's posts. From a first glance type thing, it would appear he has some pretty serious credentials.

If you have to solve the problem by shooting COM to end it; wouldn't you be better just starting off by shooting COM?

My problem, pending further investigation re: your recommendations above and further scrutiny is that 13 second window of blood remaining in the brain, and someone not being physcially disabled or significantly slowed until that thirteen seconds is over. A world of hurt can be inflicted with a blade or blunt instrument in thirteen seconds. Of course, like I've said, you have given me some reading that appears to be worth persuing, and thus a possible paradigm shift could be made on my part.

That, and the possiblity of stopping a shooting via phsycological means before a trigger has to be pulled.

 

[Meplat]

Go here:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/

Read every post in the archive by the user named "DocGKR". Not only will it be very informative on wound ballistics in general, it will also detail the .50BMG case I mentioned earlier.

Once again, thanks for the direct. Some very interesting reading indeed. It is intriguing to see multiple trauma surgeons who have witnessed first hand what they speak of. While DocGKR does make some valid observations, I can't help but notice that DrJSW does have some interesting first hand experience of his own that may or may not bear out DGKR's assertions.

It seems to me that if two surgeons - one a facial reconstruction surgeon (DocGKR), the other an Emergency Room Trauma Physcian (DrJSW) - both of whom see a considerable number of these injuries - and are much closer to the orthopedic surgeons who have to deal directly with these types injuries hold such differing views, I am out of my element in arguing them myself, and so will, as gracefully as possible, withdraw myself from them.

I really do appreciate the references though, and found them to be extremely interesting.

Thanks