Hornady A tip bullets

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I haven't watched the video but from a marketing/product niche perspective this product seems potentially VERY smart - especially if they perform very well.

F-Class-type shooting is appears to be BOOMing. In general Bergers are running (retail) $.40/bullet and, at the other end of the spectrum, machined solid bullets are running >$1.00/bullet. This Hornady bullet might be a great 'tweener from a price point perspective. And broadly along @Varminterror 's point: If someone is laying down serious dough for their long-range hobby in general spending almost double on a component that is a small percentage of overall cost will likely not even be a consideration.....if it can deliver better results on the 10/X ring.
 
@Varminterror Thank you. Finally a comment by someone who bothered to find out what they were talking about first.

I will likely never see one of these bullets, but the engineering and industrialization is fascinating!

I generally plan about $800-1000 sunk in every 2day PRS match. . .
Just. . . wow. I thought my budget was generous.
 
Wordy, but interesting:


I made it to 5:20 “These are certainly more costly because aluminum is a very costly material.” I wonder where they get their copper and lead from? Both of them cost more than aluminum around here.

Would be nice if they gave the “nuts and bolts” version vs the “dog and pony show”.
 
All new? Years and years ago......Remington produced their Bronze-Tips....... 45 years ago at least......... my dad used them on deer.

I use to use those bronze tips in 150gr in both a 30.06 and a .308 win. They shot great and were pure deer poison around here.
 
Just. . . wow. I thought my budget was generous.

Ain’t great, but is what it is:

Match Fee: $275
Ammo cost: $170 (250rnds @ 68¢/rnd)
Fuel: $100 ($2.50/gal * 300 miles 1 way * 2 ways / 15mpg)
Food: $50 total for ~3 days
Hotel: $200 ($100/night for 2 nights)
Total: $795

Not counting a variable divisor against $100/yr membership fee, which could be distributed out as an added to the 5-6 big matches I want to enter this year.

Of course, that’s also not counting ANY depreciation or devaluation of the truck used to drive there or the thousands of dollars in gear used for the matches, and not taking any barrel life assumption on the $600 total cost barrel I’m shooting which has a 1,500-2,000 round service life. Not counting any load development or practice ammo (about 4,000rnds last year total practice for me) - or the spare rifle(s) used to practice or as back up, not counting any flights for matches too far to drive, which might include rental car costs and extra baggage fees too... Sure, I try to split hotels and gas with other shooters, but often I can’t. I could scrounge for hotels that are $75 a night instead of $100, but I’ve also been stuck in rooms which were $150 per night. I’ve driven farther than 300 one way, hell, for the Jurassic Classic last year I drove almost 300 miles just back and forth from the hotel to the range, let alone the 800 mile round trip there and back. Some of the two day events are $200, some are $275, I’ve seen others listed at $350 and even $425. So I plan for $800-1000, and try to come in under budget more often than not, so those couple times I go WAY over don’t mean I have to choose between shooting a match or paying the electric bill.

If a guy is shooting Regional 1 day matches (used to be Club Series) and never getting more than an hour or two from home, that’s a grossly overestimated number - which is why I specifically said 2 day PRS matches. I’m going to a match tomorrow, $40 entry, 100 -120 rounds, 52 miles from my house. I’ll have $20 in fuel, $40 fees, $85 in ammo, and $10 in bottled water and a gas station sandwich for lunch. All in for $155 - still pretty high cost for entertainment, but it’s something.

Moral of the story - playing precision rifle games ain’t cheap, and talking about 37¢/bullet Berger 105 Hybrids vs. 75¢/bullet for the new A-Tip really doesn’t move the needle much in terms of total cost of participation in Precision Rifle Competition.
 
We can talk about the old Win Silvertips or the Rem Bronze Points, and pretend those short ogive, flat base, blunt meplat (in the case of the Win’s) hunting bullets were at all similar, but it’s kinda like saying a Porsche 911 is the same as a Ford F-150 because they both have rubber tires.

Both have rubber tires? Yes, four of them even, and you can drive the speed limit (usually 75) through the whole state of Texas using either vehicle.....the F-150 gets the nod for survive-ability in case someone hits you. These are bullets, though, and just like most of us aren't going to buy a 911 Porsche, most of us won't need or want $75 boxes of cartridges.

I mentioned this new product was likely another one I probably won't buy......I was right. Hype for most of us, useful for just a few......wishful thinking for the rest. Hornady will probably make the most money on the hype and wishful thinking.....as did Remington with the temporary bronze point.....and they were cheap comparably.
 
There are proven match bullets that will outperform the new wonder Hornady bullet for 1/2 as much money. At least one has a higher BC and a record of success. But not much marketing hype.

So now that it is fairly common to see 8 twist barrels here comes a mass produced bullet that wants a 7.5 twist.

Oh well. Some folks will race out to get them. They can have all of my share.
 
So now that it is fairly common to see 8 twist barrels here comes a mass produced bullet that wants a 7.5 twist.

Those of us shooting matches where consistency like these bullets promise to provide have had access to 8, 7.5, and even 7 twist barrels for a long, long time. Nothing new.
 
I'd like to see someone chase this concept further, with a larger aluminum core extending deeper into the bullet and comprising a larger percentage of volume. If you read up on the 7.92x40mm prototype Voss cartridge originally intended for the CETME, they were able to nearly duplicate the trajectory of 7.62 NATO with a 106 gr projectile starting at significantly less velocity and also got enhanced stabilization from the mass differential between the gilding metal/lead envelope and the aluminum core.
 
Has Hornady stated this? Current VLD stems aren’t gonna touch that aluminum tip anyway.

I had a little more time this morning and finished watching the video edwardware linked in post #23. At 12:18 they talk about the special stems they build for them, so you won’t be “pinching the ogives”.

They do talk past some interesting things, I guess it’s the engineer in me that wants data vs a fireside chat. Will be interesting to see if it’s a winning idea or just another idea.
 
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I went to Youtube this morning and clicked on Hornady.......of course these new bullets came in at the top of the list.......will watch them....I'm as curious as anyone. I noticed one troubling thing.......my Hornady Pistol Bullet Feeder mod videos came in just under them!.......Was not expecting attention......looks at them tripled from last week.....maybe I need to take them down before Hornady decides I'm an annoyance, a burr......or a fly to be swatted. ;)
 
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I went to Youtube this morning and clicked on Hornady.......of course these new bullets came in at the top of the list.......will watch them....I'm as curious as anyone. I noticed one troubling thing.......my Hornady Pistol Bullet Feeder mod videos came in just under them!.......Was not expecting attention......looks at them tripled from last week.....maybe I need to take them down before Hornady decides I'm an anoyance, a burr......or a fly to be swatted. ;)

Maybe just buy some so you can the really cool Hornady cleaning bag!:)
 
Those of us shooting matches where consistency like these bullets promise to provide have had access to 8, 7.5, and even 7 twist barrels for a long, long time. Nothing new.

Oh, I know that faster twist barrels are available. And I'm one of the "us" that shoot matches - 600 yd benchrest for me. I tried a 7.5 on one of my dashers because Bartlein had the barrel on sale.

I'm not seeing where you would say these mass produced Hornady bullets promise a level of consistency though. It must be because Hornady said so. My point of view is that tipped bullets introduce another failure vector needlessly.
 
Creating consistency in aluminum parts is far easier, in my professional experience, than injection molding plastic, especially forceful integration of said parts into another unit.

In shooting thousands and thousands of polymer tipped bullets, and loading literally millions of them when I held a manufactures license, I’ve seen a lot of inconsistencies inherent to the insertion of these tips into the jacket - which is one reason I shoot BTHP Hybrids and SMK’s in my match rifles instead of ELD’s (or A-max’s before them) - even though I have done enough shooting to prove, on side by side basises, they’ll group at range just as well for me, more often than not. But that “not,” is why I don’t take the risk.
 
I bought an early box of ELDs when the first came out. Same with the new Sierra 200g 30 cal SMKs and their new Game Changers.

I’ve decided to let others be the guinea pigs this round.
 
Seems strange to me that Hornady excluded one of the biggest potential markets by not releasing these in 168-190gr for .308. Not that I was going to spend $75 on a box or switch my dies from Redding to Hornady to use a special seating stem.

I predict this line of product will fail and be off the shelves within a year.

.40
 
I think they look really, really cool. They are no doubt state-of-the-art. But as I don't shoot out past 600 yards often, and I certainly don't compete, I'll probably stick with less expensive and adequate-to-the-task alternatives.

They do look very cool, though ...
 
Creating consistency in aluminum parts is far easier, in my professional experience, than injection molding plastic, especially forceful integration of said parts into another unit.

That depends on how you are making the aluminum parts. If you are machining them, that’s not a fair comparison vs injection molding. Comparing a die cast aluminum part would be comparable. At that point your “creating consistency” argument falls apart. Just have to remember you can machine composites too.

That’s another area they hit on in their video though, that is a hollow argument. They were talking about consistency then talk about how they varied the copper, lead and aluminum to make the 3 components somehow better than a solid machined bullet from a billet of a single material. That’s just not the way things work.
 
That depends on how you are making the aluminum parts. If you are machining them, that’s not a fair comparison vs injection molding. Comparing a die cast aluminum part would be comparable. At that point your “creating consistency” argument falls apart. Just have to remember you can machine composites too.

That’s another area they hit on in their video though, that is a hollow argument. They were talking about consistency then talk about how they varied the copper, lead and aluminum to make the 3 components somehow better than a solid machined bullet from a billet of a single material. That’s just not the way things work.

For ballistic coefficient, the manipulations they can control with a tipped al, Cu, & Pb bullet absolutely “the way things work,” when you can manipulate your CoG vs. CoP relationship. Solid coppers have a lower sectional density, and resultingly a lower ballistic coefficient than a similar length and profile lead core. So having a lead core vs. not is one step in the right direction. Adding ogive length to a copper bullet throws 3.6g/cm3 material out front (instead of 2.7SG for Al), which moves the CoG forward, increasing its sensitivity to yaw. We see manufactures running hollow cavities to mitigate that mass transition, but the larger hollow cavities leave the bullet more susceptible to tip variability/damage in handling - and of course, core profile variability in ogive formation.

You CAN machine polymers, but it’s pretty clear to see their poly bullet tips are not turned. The inclusion bubbles evident in the original release translucent ELD’s shined a light on how these things are made (and if you take a file to NAB’s, NBT’s, SST’s, Vmax’s, TMK’s, etc, you can find the bubble you couldn’t see through their opaque nature). These inclusions don’t appear to have any consistency in position nor size.

But... the greatest inconsistency I have seen in poly tipped bullets isn’t necessarily in the tip itself, but rather in the integration to the jacket. Whether they’re not concentric to the shank, not coaxial, pushed a flare against the jacket, or have an overhang lip under the shoulder of the tip, standing slightly proud with a hairline gap, or even have a slight mold flash at the shoulder, there are a number of ways I have seen poly tips varying. Equally, we see inconsistencies in tip uniformity and length for traditional cup and core BTHP’s. We see lot to lot variations in all of these, and even considerable variability within a given lot. No, we don’t see that in $1.50 lathe copper solids, but we don’t see 75¢ price tags on them either, nor do we see them on the shelf at Cabela’s in mass production. A very different die and force profile can be used to tip with aluminum than with a poly tip, which could easily encourage consistency in the integration.

I’m not particularly interested in the A-tips, and will say I’m actually disappointed they called them “A-tips”. Between the old “A-max” line, which was “A” for Accuracy, and the “E-tip” which is E for Evironmentally friendly, which refers to the lack of a lead core, so calling them E-tip was already kind of a divergence. So while A-tip makes sense Aluminum Tip, when I first saw the new model name announced, I thought “damn, why would they bring back the A-maxes?”. I love the idea of a .3 BC bullet in 6mm, but I know I don’t shoot well enough, even in matches, to need the difference in consistency. I might be interested in a high BC version for 30 and 33cal’s to feed my “light” ELR rifles in 300wm and 338LM, and if I were shooting 600/1000 benchrest any more, I could be interested there too.

But I am very certain I will find myself shooting against A-tips at precision rifle matches within a month after they hit the streets.
 
And if one guy wins a match with them people will be lined up to buy them

That’s pretty much it.

There’s is a “butt for every seat” in the car business and the same thing goes for bullets. One will most certainly be shooting against someone using them, how they finish will be the deciding factor, on other people jumping on the wagon.

Last quantitative data I have is that Hornady was 4th and the bottom half at that. That said, the data is old, was before the last break through they had and obviously this one.

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