Horrible copper fouling in my Garand

[RavenVT100]

Horrible copper fouling in my Garand (EDIT: ruined gun)

Look at this:

Now, I'm going to assume that there's no actual damage to this bore and those "ridges" are just really bad copper fouling. How do I get rid of this? Shooter's choice copper remover doesn't put a dent in it. It's a CMP M1 and this was in it when I got it. It was Service Grade.

Any suggestions?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'd say you have good grounds to buy an Outer's Foul Out -- this will electrically remove the copper fouling and get your bore squeeky clean.

 

[oneshooter]

Try "Sweets7.62" it has more ammonia in it than Shooters choice. Use a dab of it on a patch,then wait 5-6minutes and then scrub with a good stainless steel brush. Patch clean and repeat as needed. Note: Do this outside as the fumes are a little stout! When clean run a couple of patches with bore cleaner, dry patch, and oil. Run a wet patch down the bore a few days later to confirm that the stuff is gone. if it comes out green then wet patch again, dry patch, and reoil.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[Waffen]

I use wipeout foming bore cleaner. It would take care of that no problem. Just leave it in overnight, and take a rod/patch to it in the morning. Repeat if nessisary. I have seen it take some really nasty stuff out of guns before.

 

[jefnvk]

I've had some luck with Hoppes Copper Solvent, makes rags come out nice and green. Nothing that bad, though.

 

[ocabj]

To remove copper fouling:

1. Use a bronze brush. There's no way you're going to get out the copper without some scrubbing action.

2. Never use a stainless steel brush. Even if it isn't a match grade barrel, you still should treat it with some respect.

3. Avoid Sweets. It's too harsh. Use Butch's Bore Shine or Montana Gold. I've seen people complain that Butch's, Montana, Shooters 7, etc., isn't getting out all the copper. Part of it is because they don't brush it out. The other part is because they don't give the solven time to work. I'll watch people at the range run a wet patch through and immediately dry patch the bore. That's defeating the whole point of the solvent. Run a wet patch through and give it 5-10 to soak in the foulling and start to work, then run a dry patch and repeat.

 

[Steve in PA]

How does the rifle shoot?

A good scrubbing with a copper solvent or other means will get that out. However I would not go too nuts over getting every bit of copper fouling out. Some rifles shoot better with a little build up.

I once scrubbed the heck out of my hunting rifle, Win #70 .30/06, and my groupings sucked until I had some rounds through it again.

 

[RavenVT100]

The rifle shoots fine, no problems at all.

 

[Swampy]

The rifle shoots fine, no problems at all.

If it ain't broke.... Don't try to "fix" it...

Just my thoughts.

Swampy

Garands forever

 

[Dave P]

and don't forget JB bore paste, as an option.

 

[mainmech48]

Another recommendation for one of the new 'foaming" bore cleaners. I've had good results with Outer's and Wipeout. IIWY, I'd use a heavy nylon bore brush with it instead of bronze or SS. Any solvent made to remove gilding metal (mostly copper) fouling will attack bronze just as agressively. SS can mar your bore if used injudiciously on some steels.

The Outer's 'Foul Out III' system works great, but I only use it in extreme cases or as a 'last resort' when conventional methods haven't succeded in restoring accuracy to a previously established standard for a particular weapon. It can take some time to get best results, as the electrolytic process is inherently pretty slow, if extremely thorough. For heavy leading in pistol and revolver barrels it's amazing, and much less of a pain than spending the evening swabbing and scrubbing.

 

[HankB]

I have an Outers Foul-Out II which works well in conventional rifles . . . but the M1 is a gasgun, and unless you strip it down and plug the gas port, you won't get to the end of the barrel . . . the solution will just drain out above the port.

I've used Butch's Bore Shine - it seems more aggressive than Hoppe's. I let it set for a while and then both patch and scrub the bore. (It's a Garand? Be sure to use a muzzle protector or bore guide to protect the lands at the muzzle!)

JB paste helps, too.

 

[Gewehr98]

Do you folks see what I see in that barrel?

That's a goofy pattern of copper fouling, it almost looks like chatter marks, or the twist drill that cut the initial bore in the blank left threads which survived the rifling process... (ie, the "ridges" that RAven mentioned)

 

[Dave R]

Yes, I'm wondering if the ridges are copper fouling or tool chatter. The color is obviously copper fouling, but I can't see the copper forming ridges.

 

[RavenVT100]

... It's tool chatter.

I cleaned it up more tonight with some heavier solvent. Some of the "copper coated" areas have come off and when I run a jag through the bore lightly, I can feel the chatter. It's definitely in the steel.

Words cannot describe how upset I am with the CMP. I was assured a "Service Grade" rifle. I've shot it twice, (~200rds total) and it seemed to do ok at 50 yards. Perhaps it's due to my own Garand inexperience that I did not notice this sooner. I now know that this rifle will not perform at all beyond that distance and that it will not be useful for Highpower competition that I bought it for. I bought a whole bunch of .30-06 from CMP that is now essentially worthless because this rifle is essentially ruined.

There goes $600 down the tubes.

 

[ocabj]

Words cannot describe how upset I am with the CMP. I was assured a "Service Grade" rifle. I've shot it twice, (~200rds total) and it seemed to do ok at 50 yards. Perhaps it's due to my own Garand inexperience that I did not notice this sooner. I now know that this rifle will not perform at all beyond that distance and that it will not be useful for Highpower competition that I bought it for. I bought a whole bunch of .30-06 from CMP that is now essentially worthless because this rifle is essentially ruined.

There goes $600 down the tubes.

Have you even tried shooting it at 100 or 200 yards?

 

[RavenVT100]

Yeah, but I didn't do it with a suitable bench. It was at a bench with the sling around my arm, and I got about 5 MOA. I attributed it to lack of skill on my part, but now I'm not so sure. Yesterday when I was shooting it at 50 yards the groups opened up bigtime after the barrel was hot. Again, I took the modest route and attributed it to my own skill, or lack thereof.

I'm confused...you're suggesting that these deformations in the bore might not be a problem? How could they not be?

Here's another pic of the marks, on another one of the lands:

 

[ocabj]

When the CMP grades the rifles, they have a pretty extensive process.

http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/inspect.htm

Even if they find a barrel with good TE and MW readings, they won't hesitate to mark a rifle "rack grade" if they see something in the bore that would not be acceptable service use.

So I'd hazard a guess and say that the CMP felt that the bore was well within the guidelines of a service use rifle.

I think you should play with the rifle. Run some rounds through it at 100 yards with a SR-1 target or something of that nature. But, use a bench rest. If it groups under 4MOA, that should be satisfactory and will keep you in the black in JC Garand matches and get you some solid 10 ring shots.

Test fire slowly. Don't heat up the gun too much since you don't want to introduce the side-effect of the metal to handguard contact in the accuracy testing.

And if you are still feeling weary about your gun, email the CMP customer service and tell them your story. They may accomodate you with a rifle swap.

 

[RavenVT100]

So you're saying that since CMP grades their rifles so well, this could not possibly have a bad effect on accuracy?

I have never in my life seen a rifle's bore marred this bad by anything artificial. It may as well be pitted to hell. I guess I'm just having trouble believing that this isn't going to be a problem. These tool marks extend a full inch inside the muzzle.

 

[ocabj]

So you're saying that since CMP grades their rifles so well, this could not possibly have a bad effect on accuracy?

I have never in my life seen a rifle's bore marred this bad by anything artificial. It may as well be pitted to hell. I guess I'm just having trouble believing that this isn't going to be a problem. These tool marks extend a full inch inside the muzzle.

I'm not going to tell you that it won't have a bad effect on accuracy. But the gun will still probably shoot well enough.

I've seen rack grades with pits in the bore that still shot surprisingly well within 3MOA. Would it have shot better if it didn't have a pitted bore? Probably.

You can't compare these guns to modern day rifles. The CMP Garands have seen heavy use, and many were in WWII and Korea (and maybe even Vietnam assuming they were recaptures sent back to the US). Odds are that you won't get a pristine bore in a rack, field, or service grade (or even a correct grade).

But the DCM/CMP guidelines for inspecting rifles is sound. I'm not going to say that it's perfect. I'm sure they'll make mistakes on some rifles, but they know what they are doing.

Again, my opinion, email the CMP if you have your doubts. Send them the pics you took and see what they say. But I'd still play with the rifle to see what it can do before I call it a lost cause.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Those circular machining marks in the grooves are indicative of a broach rifling method. They're supposedly formed when the gang broach is drilled into the barrel, removing material to form the rifling

Button rifling won't do this since it's swaged down the bore and there's no actual removal or machining of the bore.

Check out this page on a crossection showing similar markings:http://www.firearmsid.com/A_bulletIDrifling.htm

At least, that is one explanation. I'd hope the tooling in rifling barrels weren't so poorl and flimsy that it'd chatter when rifling a barrel.

 

[RavenVT100]

Some of the people on the CMP forums say the same thing exists in their rifles.

Perhaps this is a fairly new bore and it'll "polish out" over time? Who knows. Utterly weird, but now at least I know what it is.

I'll test the rifle's performance from a bench rest, it's the only truly diagnostic method. I was getting some decent groups before it got hot, but then again that could be because my arm got tired after.

 

[Swampy]

raven,

Chill dude........ Your rifle is NOT ruined. Far from it. That muzzle looks fine... and THAT's where it counts most on a barrel.

Tool chatter to some degree is acceptable and would even be considered "normal" in an issue grade rifle barrel. I have a couple (and have seen more) barrels just like yours. One is even an LMR.... which is supposed to be one of the best GI barrel's out there. It shoots fine, as do the others that show this type of chatter.

I'll bet yours does too, after you do a THOROUGH accuracy testing with it.

Remember too.... You have a MILITARY rifle, NOT a target piece. GI accuracy spec only specifies that a rifle be able to shoot 8 rounds of M2 ball into 4.0 MOA @ 100 yds. That's not anywhere near Match accuracy..... and it's not meant for that.

You wrote:

Yesterday when I was shooting it at 50 yards the groups opened up bigtime after the barrel was hot.

Groups opening up on a hot rifle is a common thing and numerous causes exist... but it's doubtful that the chatter marks in the bore are one of them.
Check for wood fit... tight buttstock, loose handguards (YES, loose).

Do more shooting at 100 and beyond. There are too many variables to get meaningful accuracy test results from 25 and 50 yd groups. And don't be in a hurry. Do it slow, do it calm, do it right. Either shoot from a SOLID bench with bags at both ends (don't put one under the handguard, buttstock only), or from a solid sling supported PRONE position.

Use good ammo. Personally, I don't think much of the accuracy of the Korean stuff.... and to be truthful, LC-69 is not the best out there. I prefer LC-66 or Danish AMA for my M2 tests (my rifles do too...). I have not shot any yet, but I hear from guys who've tried it that the Greek HXP M2 that just became available is supposed to be great stuff accuracy wise.....

In a nutshell.... if you are excited or bummed about the rifle in your hands, you are not going to shoot it well. You might surprise yourself if you shoot calm and give the rifle a fair shake that's not based on a visual "boo-boo".

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Swampy

Garands forever

 

[RavenVT100]

Swampy: Thanks for the reality check. Realize I've been around target barrels all my life and this M1 is one of the first .mil guns I've owned.

I defer to, and greatly appreciate, all of your expertise--honest.

Now, about that stock thing you mentioned. Since my stock was a replacement stock, I refinished it. It's not as tight as it could be, but it's fairly snug. Is that normal, or should it be really hard to separate from the action?

 

[Fatelvis]

I have to agree with DaveP, JBs bore paste would be a good idea, along with a copper solvent. I normally keep "abrasive" cleaning products away from my bores, but in this situation, I think it might help smooth out the chatter marks. Also, if you reload, David Tubb`s "Final Finish" system might work wonders also!