Discussion in 'Long Gun Accessories and Optics' started by 1KPerDay, Apr 5, 2018.
This first video may as well be in Greek. I don't even understand the basic vocabulary.
Play with strelok a bit and you'll understand what he's talking about.....in theory.....I think......maybe.
I've never used a reticle like that so while I "get" what he's talking about, I doubt I could apply it without a bunch of practice, and a spotter or a rifle/cartridge I could call my shots with.
Oh and a bunch of extra gear I don't have. Like one of those scopes
Scary. I understood him! I am nowhere near that experienced, but at this point, I don't care for such a cluttered reticle; I'd rather dial in my dope and hold dead on. But I understood what he was saying ...
You really need to be pausing the video and following along in your ballistic app as he goes to be able to really track this, unless you're really familiar with these reticles and how they're used.
First, recognize that the TReMoR's (we don't say TReMoR Reticles - cuz the R is for Reticle, kinda like "ATM Machine") have "extra" info incorporated all over the reticle, a lot of which just isn't valuable to most shooters. Anything above the reticle centerline is used for "milling," aka ranging targets based on their apparent size (don't need this if you own a LRF), plus hold correction for moving targets (don't need this if you don't shoot movers). Then below the centerline major stadia, you have both regular mil graduations shows as stadia lines above each horizontal stadia, and the dots below the horizontals are windage correction dots (don't need these dots if you have time to punch your calculator in the field). This gives the shooter an ability, given a ton of time to prep for the shot, and a TON of experience and practice, to make hold over shots in the wind, on movers, all with data from their reticle... You can add the speed correction offset, measured in mils, to the desired windage dot, and have a positive aiming point on target, never hanging your target in space. I've used them, and still do, but I'll readily admit, I really need to ONLY be using that reticle all year to be readily proficient. Kinda like saying - I know a language, but I don't practice it enough to speak it fluently...
Secondly - recognize the TReMoR's are made to be 100% hold over, NEVER dialed. If you dial, you change the relationship between the dots and the windspeed.
His game is to leave the calculator at home, and live from your range card and your reticle, instead of running the calculator for corrections.
The wind dot calibration process he describes - poorly, as Todd often does in how he speaks - is just a way to correlate what 0.475mil means (half of 0.95) in terms of wind speed for your load:
Run your load on the calculator to get your trajectory at your density altitude
Determine the exact range at which your load crosses 4mil drop (may have to punch and repunch different ranges to get this nailed down)
Determine the exact wind velocity which produces 0.95mil of wind drift (likely have to punch and repunch different wind speeds to get this nailed down)
Divide that wind speed by 2 - forever onward with that load, at that Density Altitude, this windspeed is the value of wind for each dot, regardless of the horizontal it's on
So from then on, you know your load at your altitude would have "one dot" worth of offset for that windspeed. If you shoot in a wind half as fast, you hold half a dot gap, if you shoot in 3x the wind, you hold 3 dots... And the dots are staggered such if you shoot twice as far, you still hold the same number as dots.
For example: My 6mm creed, running the 105 Hybrid, at my density altitude (I'm running 1388ft at 30.065inHg today) at 2916fps. I cross 4mil at 662yrds, so now I go back and start punching wind until I get 0.95mil wind drift at 662yrds (23.8"), so I come up with 8mph. Since 0.95 is the SECOND dot, I divide 8 by 2, so that tells me each dot is worth 4mph. If I shoot in a 12mph wind, I hold 3 dots, if I shoot in a 2mph, I hold half a dot... At any range...
I like Todd's stuff well enough, but he does use a LOT of the language too much, because most shooters aren't readily fluent, and he goes over stuff too quickly and at too high level - because for him and a select group of other shooters, all of this is just review. I personally think it's very hard for a newbie to learn from his content, because he tends to NOT talk beneath experts. I'm sure in a beginner level class, or with a beginner, he's a fantastic teacher, but I see a lot of his content like this which just doesn't translate to the layman.
In the other video, he talks about wind bracketing - which is a common technique. It's just a relationship of your target size to your windspeed correction. Say I'm shooting 662yrds on a 2moa target - 0.56mil. When I look at the target in the scope, I can see the target is wider than my dot gap. Say I can't decide if I have an 8mph or 10mph wind. Don't panic - 2mph is only half a gap, and my target is ~1.2 gaps wide... Hold the second dot on target, or slightly into the wind side, and bang. Impact.
Or say I read my wind speed as 12mph, but I can't tell if it's full value or 3/4 value... Full is 12mph wind, 3/4 is 9mph, the difference is 3/4 of a gap, where my target is ~1.2 gaps wide, so I can just hold either call on target and still make the hit (or an average call between 9 and 12)... Again, hold anywhere between 2nd and 3rd dot, bang, impact.
The advantage of the TReMoR: In a mil based Christmas Tree reticle, you ONLY have mil stadia on the horizontals. So as you go farther out, each windage line corresponds to a different windspeed. The windage dots in the TReMoR get wider as you go lower, so they always correspond to the same windspeed correction. So I don't need to calculate my windage corrections, I ONLY need to read the wind to within the size of my target, and send it.
I dial, so I prefer to just ride the windage across my crosshairs. I love the idea of the TReMoR and the Horus, or any Christmas Tree, but unless a stage makes me hold, or I run out of clicks, I don’t mess with it much. Just enough to be proficient.
Horus reticles. People either love them or hate them. Those who hate them are usually intimidated by them and never take the time to learn them. When I first saw them, and the ballistic app (Aussie SOF guys were using it in afg in '05 when we were still using Leupold MK4 and paper log books) I was intimidated too. Fast forward a couple of years, and we are in Texas with Todd for a couple of weeks, getting an immersion course on these things. At that point, I had been a sniper for over 10 years, but Texas was a humbling experience because it showed me how much I DIDN'T know, and the new equipment took us to new levels in a very short amount of time. As far as the "cluttered" reticle, the best way I can explain it, is that as I spent more time (a couple of days) using various Horus designs, one day it just seemed to "click". Compare it to looking at a graph with lots of numbers or dots. Lots of stuff, but you are only REALLY paying attention to the numbers and dots that apply right now- like a clock with hands- you are only looking to see what time it is right now- best way I can explain it, anyway. Now, I have 7 scopes with various iterations of the Horus reticle, and I still use the TRAG software (stored on a SD card, in a 2007 vintage HP IPAQ palm pilot, and backed up with a paper log book). However, I also have a M24 SWS with the original MK4 that I shoot from time to time with a paper log ONLY just to make sure I don't get too spoiled on technology.
Ahhh-Ha!!! his beard is stuck in his throat!!!
Outstanding clarity in distilling this down! I have watched both clips five times...but your explanation was a marvelous epiphany...! One thing I need to ask: so if one uses the wind dots, I know you never have to dial wind or use mils... but do you still dial for vertical drop, or is that now only determined by holding the necessary mils for distance, then using the wind dots? Thanks!
No - you cannot dial range (elevation). Otherwise your relationship between wind and the dots changes. As you go down on the reticle, the dots get farther apart. So if you dial, it brings the target up out of your reticle field to the horizontal main stadia - where the dots are much closer together, and if you hold the dot at that line, you won’t be holding nearly enough windage hold.
You COULD dial, then remember how much you dialed, look down on the reticle to that hold over stadia, then float the target directly above the appropriate wind dot from below, but it defeats the purpose of using the TReMoR.
So, going back to real numbers, but keeping it simple:
I shot a match last wknd with my 6 creed, new barrel, trucking 3026fps with 105 Hybrids at 1600ft DA. My load crosses 4 mil at 721yrds, and has 0.95mil of wind at 7.9mph - call it 8mph, so each dot is worth 4mph. We shot in 15-32mph winds that day, let’s say I have a stage with a 16mph call - which should be 4 dots...
If I dialed 721 yards, 4.0mil, then imagine where 4 dots would fall on that crosshair, I’d hold something about 1/2mil (where the red line below meets the horizontal), whereas I really need to hold just under 2mil (where the green line projects the 4th dot at 4 mils up to the horizontal crosshair). If I dialed 4 mils and held the target above the 4th dot in the 4 mil elevation row - in other words, if I followed the green line - I would make a hit. But if I shot 4 dots because the wind is 4 dots, dialing out 4 mil of elevation, I would miss by 1.5mil downwind...
*note: in the reticle pictured below, the TReMoR 3, the numbers above the horizontal crosshair are mover speeds, not mil counts. The mil hashes hang below the crosshair in .2mil increments.
Yep... I'm still too dumb to talk to you
I get it... in theory.
The mph relationship for wind calls is fairly simple but you need to be able to observe and measure the sum of the wind fromThe shooter to the target
My 308 is a 4mph gun
A 4mph wind from 3 o’clock pushes my bullet .1 mils per hundred yards to 600 yds, then I have to do a little fancy math so 700 is an .8 mil hold, 800 is .9 mil, 900 is 1.1and 1000 is 1.2 miles, or close to that.......If I can read the wind for the entire range (I can’t usually).
The Horus system is a way to do this on the fly, I think they are great tools for a DMR/ semi auto weapon where accuracy through volume is acceptable (think urban warfare and engagements 200-800yds “assault sniper” type work)
That rule of thumb works surprisingly well for many rifles. The only difference is figuring out whether you have a “4mph gun” or a 5, or 4.5, etc. Then just scaling 4mph to get to your actual wind call. Todd Hodnett also has some videos going through how to correct that rule of thumb for your cartridge depending upon BC and velocity. More fun to just shoot it and record DOPE.
I keep a 4mph wind column in my data book, because doing the math is easy - divide by two, multiply by 6, whatever, it’s easier than working in 5mph. So I transfer that 4mph column to all of My range cards and stage card (on my wrist and on my rifle), even when shooting in a higher wind, as it gives me an idea of my bracket, and makes adding or subtracting wind much easier. For example - I read 20-24mph on the wind meter, confirmed the same wind down field as the same exposure. So I wrote 20mph corrections on my card, which already had a 4mph call printed on it. If the wind fell during the stage and I called 18, then the 20mph call minus half of the 4mph call is quick to figure. If it jumped to 26, then the 20mph call plus the 4, plus half again of the 4 is quick to figure on the clock.
It’s not just accuracy by volume, as first round hits score, and misses miss for some of us, and I’m sure first round hits make a big difference for many soldiers which might employ this type of reticle. It just saves a step - a TReMoR user just has to read the wind and remember what each dot is worth. Instead of remembering different rules of thumb (.1/100 until 600, then .1/100 + .1 to 900, then .1/100+.2 until 1100...) and instead of taking time to reference a ballistic calculator or data card on TWO columns, drop and wind, you just look at your card for drop and use your wind call in mph.
With data - instead of remembering, referencing, or calculating that 721yrds at 16mph means 4.0mil drop and 2.0mil drift, a TReMoR user would only have to remember/reference/calculate 721yrds means 4.0mil drop, then hold on his 16mph drop. If a guy has a drop card, they don’t have to have wind at all, and only have to look up there hold over for range correction, instead of having two columns for drop and wind - then doing math to scale their wind data to the actual wind. Doesn’t seem like much, but it does require less gear and less time to range a target, estimate wind, look at a single column on a data card, hold over that number for elevation and put your wind dot on the target.
They’re not popular, nor is the knowledge of how to use them common because not many guys shoot past 400yrds on small enough targets with variable winds in situations where first round hits matter more than walking the shots onto target, and in a time dependent situation where data preparation is inhibitive. For example - I would STRONGLY prefer this kind of reticle for shooting “blind matches” where no specific data prep was possible, or for any soldiering/SDM type application where I might have variable range targets popping up without time to prepare specific data. It’s application driven. You’ll hear accomplished benchrest shooters say they have never owned a wind meter or chronograph and don’t use ballistic calculators, but they shoot fixed distance, often with unlimited sighters. Precision rifle competitors on the other hand, will usually take a chronograph with them to a match, and always have a ballistic calculator and wind meter in hand. One shoots fixed distance with sighters, one shoots variable distance with no sighters. The game is different, so the gear is different. PRS shooters don’t usually use this kind of reticle either - because we have our courses of fire the day or week before, or at least before the stage, and can prep our data. Blind matches or stages don’t work that way, and some hold over only stages can be very challenging for folks who have simpler reticles, as can be “no electronics” matches, but those aren’t that common.
spot on, folks who use the horus system can be very effective in the right hands. My opinion, not driven by owning one and putting thousands of rounds through it, but based on looking through scopes and a decent amount of shooting, is that really long range engagements (in that 9-12 mil + range) it is better to dial for elevation and perhaps some wind. even the best scopes have some distortion around the edges, so a 10 mil hold, while possible, compromises the shooters view and perhaps the shot. distance should buy time and opportunity to dial up, make wind observations and corrections, then break a shot. lets be honest, a 1st round hit at 1000 yds requires a good wind call. very possible and i'm sure you have done it, i've done it, but i've also missed by 2 feet at 1000 yds thanks to a bad wind call.
this is my only reason for saying it is great for DMR and accuracy through volume - because it is a wicked fast way to get hits, either 1st or 2nd round hits and when the bad guys are 600 yds away and pop out of a window to spray a PKM into the street, you don't have time to dial
No doubt - when we get out to 1200yrds or more, being that close to the edge really starts to work on the shooter’s ability to hold. Much better to dial. But in the 2-7mil ballpark, I can see the advantages of holdover reticles. I really like Christmas trees, and even simply hold over instead of dialing at some stages, especially in higher winds.
I also agree - it’s like cheating when you have an opportunity to walk shots onto target with these reticles - assuming you can see the splashes. Move the dot it “hit” to the target and send another.
I quickly gave up on the video. I have trouble remembering my door lock code, much less all that stuff. I'm not sure I can afford a scope with that busy a reticle anyway.
Great description Varminterror. I definitely see the appeal of the wind dots in addition to the typical mil hash only Christmas Tree reticles. Your description was very concise and clear.
I am using the EBR-2C reticle with dope cards, and hadn't spent a lot of time studying the Tremor. I have dialed as well as held, and haven't settled on a preference yet. But I am still quite new at the longer range game.
A lot of the data that he was rattling off was muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficients of standard loads for long range shooting.
You can get a Vortex PST GenII with an EBR-2c reticle for under $800, maybe under $600 depending upon what deals and sales are going on. A good starter scope to dip your toes in the water of shooting at extended distances.
His videos are really rough to follow. He’s highly skilled and a great trainer for top guys who already speak the language, but his manner of speaking is a challenge, and his ability to present high level material at the “first timer” level isn’t really reflective of his skill with the rifle or mastery of the material.
It ain’t for everybody, and that is NOT a facetious means to say “you’d be cooler if you bought one.”
What I REALLY like about the dots isn’t really the dots, but it’s the mentality of helping the shooter relate their trajectory to the wind. I know some other really talented competitive shooters who can kick off their range DOPE from memory within a click or two for any random range, but if they didn’t have a ballistic calculator or range card, they’d have no clue what their wind hold should be. It’s an extra layer of correlation in the matrix, so their mental database relies completely on the calculator or data card. They don’t relate the wind to a drift rate (the rule of thumb above), they just look it up and run it. I wish most of the time I could remember to think that way - I’d likely be lost if I ever didn’t at least have my 4mph table on my range card.
It's just lingo, ballistics calculators, and presumably the robustness of some optics with which you're unfamiliar. No biggie but can be used to your advantage when long distance shooting primarily.
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