Hot 44Spl load converted to 44Mag case?

[MovedWest]

I've realized that a 44spl load that I've worked up in my Ruger SBH is more along the lines of a 44mag load. I REALLY like this load, but it would probably damage a genuine 44Spl handgun, and I want to load a lighter, more true 44Spl load in my 44Spl brass for HD and also for my wife to fire.

If I were to load it in a longer 44mag shell, should I expect the powder load needs to be adjusted to compensate? If so, by what percentage? I'm just looking for a starting point so I only have to load 50 test rounds instead of 200...

-MW

 

[sourdough44]

I have read from a reputable source that 'any 38spcl load can be loaded in a 357mag case'. I think you are in a very similar situation. You could get an easy & 'official' answer by calling the Sierra 800 no. reloaders line. An e-mail to Hodgdon would also work. I do think it's right to keep the load accurate with the brass headstamp, i.e. no higher than 38spcl +p in a 38 case etc..

 

[Walkalong]

Start with the same load, assuming it is within load guidelines for .44 Mag (I should hope it is), and work up carefully it all looks and feels OK. Do you have a chrono? What load are you shooting in .44 Spl brass that you think equates to a .44 Mag load? I have shot some perky .44 Spl loads, but none would come close to matching .44 Mag loads.

 

[buck460XVR]

As with any major change in components I assume the safe thing to do is to rework the load. With all the available reloading info out there nowadays I assume if the load is safe and uses common powder and bullets that there is a load recipe to be found. Why not just ask those here that reload for .44 mag if the load is reasonable....or is it one of those magic bullets and you do not want the info to fall into the wrong hands?

 

[MovedWest]

I built this up because I was looking for something more potent than a special load that was lighter than a magnum. I don't consider it a magic bullet, but I really do like the accuracy of the load and the minimal recoil. Here's the recipe:

Remington 210gr JHP (.429)
44special brass case (hornady brass)
8.7gr green dot
CCI 350 large pistol magnum primer
OAL: 1.500"

I used magnum primers as they seem to be easier to find than standard primers, and I always use them with my magnum rounds. I use 2400 for my magnum loads, but the green dot is a pleasure to shoot for target practice.

Alliant's site only lists green dot for the 44mag with a 240 cast LSWC as 7gr, but the velocity is only 900fps. IMO that's 44spl territory and a lighter bullet (210gr) would allow for a slightly increased charge.

I do not have a chrono as of yet, but it's on my 2009 list. The reason I'm thinking this round is closer to magnum pressure is the amount of kick it has over a standard special round, the lack of blow-by that I normally get from a 44spl factory load, and the way it prints. Even on thick paper it prints like a hole puncher. That tells me the bullet is hitting some pretty serious velocities. My magnum rounds won't punch holes like that.

I've never had split brass, trouble ejecting spent rounds, or flattened primers. I don't think this has quite the pressure of a magnum load, but the more I think about it the more I think I'd want to load it in a magnum case as a light and fast round. It would probably prolong the life of my 44spl brass.

-MW

 

[Walkalong]

That is definitely over .44 Spl pressures. I don't see any Green Dot loads for .44 Spl and just one for .44 Mag on Alliants website. It looks like a safe enough load in .44 Mag cases, but not .44 Spl.

To get the same results in .44 mag cases you would have to go up .1 to .2 grains (At most) of Green Dot I would guess. Green Dot does not need the mag primers, and may shoot better with standard primers as well.

I would seriously suggest getting a load book, and following it.

 

[rcmodel]

You could go directly to .44 Mag cases with the same load with no safety concerns, and very little performance differance.

I think the thicker Mag case head & walls will about cancel out the longer Mags increased case capacity.

Alliant lists a MAX .44 Mag charge of 10.7 Green-Dot with a 200 JHP as giving 1,370 at 34,500 PSI.

MAX 9.2 grains with a 225 JHP gives 1,220 at 34,500.

Your 8.7 load gives 1,190 at 35,000 PSI with a 240 grain JSP and is also MAX with that bullet weight.

Reducing the bullet weight to 210 would reduce both the pressure and the velocity to a fairly mild but still powerful level.

The only thing is, your Mag primers used with the above listed MAX loads would be going into unchartered territory.

rc

 

[Ol` Joe]

Comparing a spcl case to a mag case isn`t a good way to work up a load. The 44 spcl is shorter then a mag case and in effect you are reduceing the chamber volume of the pistol. You definatly are working on your own without proper equipment. Pressures don`t always rise and fall linearly and can spike or otherwise suprise you. The fact recoil feels similar to a mag means nothing. Recoil is related to bullet and ejecta wgt along with velocity, not pressure. I`d stay with starting loads in the 44 mag or max 44 spcl loads in magnum cases for a light recoiling load.
There is another down side to spcl brass use in a mag revolver. The shorter brass allows fouling to build between the chamber and the short case mouth. If you don`t get it cleaned out well a magnum case mouth could be pinched and not smoothly release the bullet when fired. This can cause pressure to spike.
Personally I`d stay with reliable data in a mag case for your loads. As example, I have shot lots of 7-8 gr unique loads with 240 gr lead in my 44 mags and recoil is light with velocities in the normal 44 spcl range. Data for reduced loads is available on the web or in Lymans and Speers (I believe) manuals

 

[MovedWest]

I agree with you on the primers, rcmodel. Thanks for chiming in btw. Your advice in other posts has definitely been a great help in the past. I still don't know where you came up with those numbers though... I've looked for load data for green dot, but I'd often thought it would be easier to find Atlantis.

I knew I was going to get a barrage of people barking at me to stick with books and data. I definitely do when it comes to standard powders, but no one seems to have anything listed on green dot. You can't adhere to something that's not there. I know you all are just trying to look out for my safety, but I'm well within the limits here with this load.

I tried a slew of powders trying to find one I liked and none of them can stand up to the consistency and handling of green dot in MY weapon. Every gun is different. The only powder that came close was IMR4227, but even that didn't have the consistency that green dot had and it was pretty dirty at lower pressures.

Also it was not my intention to work this up as a magnum load and the recoil is nothing in comparison with a magnum load. I use 2400 with 240gr and 300gr bullets for those and stick with the load data. As my initial post indicates, I was looking for slightly more potent special round. I started with 5.5gr and worked my way up carefully while taking tons of notes. I ran into issues all around until I hit a sweet spot in the 8.4-8.8gr range. Those rounds were freakishly consistent and led me to settle on 8.7gr. Anything above 9gr took a serious dive in grouping. My groups went from 1" at 25yds to 5" at 25yds, but still no signs of excessive pressures.

Again, I'm not looking to light up the range and take on Sherman tanks - I just want accurate, consistent rounds. This one is exactly that, but I just want to build it in a magnum case due to the pressures.

-MW

 

[rcmodel]

I still don't know where you came up with those numbers though

Data from Alliant Reloaders Guide. 2002 Edition / Vol. 2.

I keep old stuff.
Never know when it might come in handy.

rc

 

[Walkalong]

I knew I was going to get a barrage of people barking at me to stick with books and data.

As well you should have posting overloads in a caliber. I also answered the question though. I still think it will take .1 or maybe even .2 more grains. I do not believe the case wall thickness is enough, although I could be wrong.

 

[Asherdan]

I keep old stuff.
Never know when it might come in handy.

Me too. Instead of cranking at you about manual data I'll attach page 43 and 44 from the 2004 Alliant manual. Has the Green Dot data rcmodel was quoting.

I also agree with Walkalong's thinking.

 

[MovedWest]

You guys rock! This is exactly what I was hoping for. This load has turned into a pet load for me and I'll be really happy if it keeps it's traits in magnum brass.

I read a long time ago that green dot was the best kept secret in 44 and now I realize why. Firstly, there's next to no data on it and secondly it works wonders in the cartridge.

Thanks for everyone's input - even the people who barked at me.

-MW

 

[rcmodel]

SO, here's your one opportunity in a lifetime for 15 minutes of fame.

Buy a chronograph and test your 8.7 load in both Spl & Mag cases.

Then report back here with the conclusive results!

Somebody is going down, and it's probably going to be me!

Just remember, I said "with no safety concerns, and very little performance differance".
Not that you would get exactly the same velocity in both cases.


rc

 

[MovedWest]

I just went through the charts that Asherdan posted and see a load for 8.7gr for a 240gr JSP. Those are the bullets I'm currently using with my 2400 magnum loads. I think I might also give that one a try. Using 8-9gr of green dot is a heck of a lot cheaper than 18-19gr of 2400. Although 2400 does make throw off some pretty light...

You have no idea how you guys just made my day! Thanks again!

-MW

 

[MovedWest]

SO, here's your one opportunity of a lifetime for 15 minutes of fame.

Buy a chronograph and test your 8.7 load in both Spl & Mag cases.

Then report back here with the conclusive results!

Somebody is going down, and it's probably going to be me!

Just remember, I said "with no safety concerns, and very little performance differance".
Not that you would get exactly the same velocity in both cases.


rc

I'm logging into Midway as we speak! I'm willing to take the Pepsi challenge with this one. Anyone have recommendations on a brand for a chrono?

-MW

 

[rcmodel]

PACT?

Least, that's what I would get.

rc

 

[Asherdan]

I'm three years into a Shooting Chrony F-1 Master (Master indicated the remote readout & power button) and it's been a well spent C-note for me. Find a cheap tripod and you're good to go.

 

[RidgwayCO]

Let me get this straight... you couldn't find any Green Dot data for your "robust" .44 Special load (and you don't have a chronograph), so you just kept adding powder until it felt good? Mister, I hope you're currently enjoying your eyes and hands, because you may not have use of them for very long.

According to QuickLOAD software, your .44 Special loading is producing almost 31,000 psi (vs. the SAAMI max average pressure of 15,500 psi for the .44 Special, and 36,000 psi for the .44 Magnum). This pressure number doesn't include the use of a magnum primer, which in my experience will increase pressures by at least a couple of thousand psi. It would not surprise me in the least to find that your combination actually exceeds the SAAMI specs for a .44 Magnum.

I guarantee that if you keep making these .44 Special reloads at "almost .44 Magnum pressure", someday one will find its way into a .44 Special handgun, with possibly catastrophic results. I sure hope your wife isn't holding onto the gun when this happens...

(I guess this thread goes under the heading "why I don't shoot other people's reloads"...)

 

[MovedWest]

I guarantee that if you keep making these .44 Special reloads at "almost .44 Magnum pressure", someday one will find its way into a .44 Special handgun, with possibly catastrophic results. I sure hope your wife isn't holding onto the gun when this happens...

Really... re-read my post and you'll see my intent and that I looked for signs of excessive pressure. This is exactly WHY I want to load them in magnum cases. I've never seen a 31k psi load blow up a Super Blackhawk since standard magnum pressures go up to 35k psi. Your post is no help and definitely not High Road.

-MW

 

[Walkalong]

Then report back here with the conclusive results!

Yep. Curious as to the results.

Let me get this straight... you couldn't find any Green Dot data for your "robust" .44 Special load (and you don't have a chronograph), so you just kept adding powder until it felt good?

My thinking exactly when I first read the OP, thus my first answer.

 

[1858rem]

RidgwayCO ...read the OP?

Hot 44Spl load converted to 44Mag case?

I REALLY like this load, but it would probably damage a genuine 44Spl handgun, and I want to load a lighter, more true 44Spl load in my 44Spl brass for HD and also for my wife to fire.

seems like hes trying to avoid the hot 44spl in an old 44spl problem by looking for help transferring the load to stronger 44 mag brass that wont fit an old 44spl

 

[MovedWest]

Let me get this straight... you couldn't find any Green Dot data for your "robust" .44 Special load (and you don't have a chronograph), so you just kept adding powder until it felt good?

My thinking exactly when I first read the OP, thus my first answer.

Doing it this way definitely would be careless. There was bracketing and much refining involved. Like I said, no sticky cases, certainly no split cases, and no flattened primers. Accuracy was also the target factor, not feel. I might not have attempted this with a S&W revolver. And even though Rugers can take hot loads, I knew I was well within safe bounds.

But really this thread isn't about HOW I built the load. It's about whether or not moving it to a longer case would require much in the way of changes.

-MW

 

[MovedWest]

Okay rcmodel, my chrono is on its way from Midway. My 15 minutes is only a few days away!

SO, here's your one opportunity in a lifetime for 15 minutes of fame.

Buy a chronograph and test your 8.7 load in both Spl & Mag cases.

Then report back here with the conclusive results!

Somebody is going down, and it's probably going to be me!

Just remember, I said "with no safety concerns, and very little performance differance".
Not that you would get exactly the same velocity in both cases.

 

[Walkalong]

Cool. Looking forward to the test results.