House votes to extend Patriot Act

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The entire US federal government fails to prevent a massive terrorist attack.

What's the result?

They come screeching to the public, telling us that if only we would give up a bit more freedom, and a bit more money that they can keep us safe.

Seems like throwing good money after bad to me.
 
I asked you whether you had actually read the PATRIOT Act, and why it should be made permanent.

An here's your response:
LB, either you totally misunderstood the meaning of my post or you are a callous and selfish person towards your loved ones.

So now I am either an illiterate fool or a selfish, callous person, eh?

I take it that your ad hominem in lieu of merely answering my questions means that you haven't really read it.

I'm just waiting for you to denounce my patriotism, tell me how much I "hate America," and secretly wish for Al Qaeda to march into Hometown, USA.
 
Longhorngunman, this is not the appropriate forum in which you should be discussing my family. I suggest you contact me off list and we can arrange a meeting over refreshing beverages. Then you can share your theories about my family to my face. ;)
 
Lobotomy Boy said:
Longhorngunman, this is not the appropriate forum in which you should be discussing my family. I suggest you contact me off list and we can arrange a meeting over refreshing beverages. Then you can share your theories about my family to my face. ;)

"Subtle." Most impressive. :D
 
Lobotomy Boy said:
Longhorngunman, this is not the appropriate forum in which you should be discussing my family. I suggest you contact me off list and we can arrange a meeting over refreshing beverages. Then you can share your theories about my family to my face. ;)
Tell 'im, Bro.
:)
Biker
 
longhorngunman said:
LB, either you totally misunderstood the meaning of my post or you are a callous and selfish person towards your loved ones. If that is the case you might be many things but a man you are not. I hope it was just misunderstood.

Moderators in our code of conduct said:
4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

Longhorn, I would seriously suggest taking a breath. That tread awful close to the line.

Have you read about the fifth of November yet?
 
Hmm, I see that it is fine for somebody to insinuate my "cowardice" because I think about the repercussions of my actions, but yet when I simply ask if if a poster understood my statement it's allright to gang up on me. BTW LB the more you type the more you answer what I was wondering loud and clear. Also, I have no beef with your loved ones and I'm sure they are great people. Maybe if you sit back and think things through you'd understand my original post.
DW, the PA just tears down walls that were in the way of the gov doing a effective job. We have a system of checks and balances and it still works fine to this day. We are a lot more free today than even in the days after our forefathers founded this country. Especially if you come from a race different than Caucasion.
 
longhorngunman. We have a system of checks and balances and it still works fine to this day. We are a lot more free today than even in the days after our forefathers founded this country. Especially if you come from a race different than Caucasion.[/QUOTE said:
Your kidding. Right?
 
Longhorngunman, I still do not see where you have answered my very simple questions.

Have you read the PATRIOT Act?
Why should it be made permanent?

I read your post and they just seem to be resorts to emotionalism. Reminds me of my arguments over at Democraticunderground over renewal of the Assault Weapons Ban. One anti in particular, I'd ask him if he had even read the act, if he even knew what an AW was, if he could even articulate an argument in favor ot it renewal.

He totally sidestepped my questions and merely accused me of being evil and selfish, and of not "caring about the children." :barf:

Emotional tirades are simply not persuasive to me. Just because some president says it's a good idea (Clinton with the AW ban, Bush with the PA) does not mean that I will shut down my critical reasoning.

Hmm, I see that it is fine for somebody to insinuate my "cowardice"

Who said anything about cowardice? You put the words in quotes, so I will aks you: who exactly are you quoting?

DW, the PA just tears down walls that were in the way of the gov doing a effective job.

OK, now we might be on to something. What walls prevented the fedgov from preventing the 9-11 plot? How does the PA tear down these walls?
 
What emotional tirades are you talking about? My statement about evil forces that are actively trying to murder millions of Americans is totally correct, no emotional tirade needs to be added to that simple fact. The "cowardice" remark deals with one certain poster, not yourself or any others. Did you watch the 9/11 commision hearings? That should explain the "wall" pretty well. As far as the PA makes us give up some liberties, probably so, but that is reality especially in the modern world. Total freedom sounds like a grand idea but never works when your dealing with lots of human beings. Total freedom may be great for most decent people like THR's but in the sum of humanity it leads to anarchy. Nope the Patriot Act doesn't concern me in the least, but I do respect your opinion on the matter.
 
Who said anything about cowardice? You put the words in quotes, so I will aks you: who exactly are you quoting?

While I didn't exactly call longhorngunman a coward, but I did explain my definition of a coward and it seemed that shoe fit him pretty well, as he proved when he tried to drag my family into the discussion.
 
I never tried to drag your family into it LB. You are making that accusation and trying to run with it. It ain't gonna work so give it up!
 
longhorngunman wrote:
Did you watch the 9/11 commision hearings? That should explain the "wall" pretty well.

I watched the hearings, and I assume that you are referring to John Ashcroft's statement of 13 April 2004, which I quote below.

But the simple fact of September 11 is this: we did not know an attack was coming because for nearly a decade our government had blinded itself to its enemies. Our agents were isolated by government-imposed walls, handcuffed by government-imposed restrictions, and starved for basic information technology. The old national intelligence system in place on September 11 was destined to fail.

Ashcroft's remarks are true only if stupidity is considered a form of blindness. I don't buy it, and here's why.

* On 21 August 2004 the 9/11 Commission issued a report revealing that the FBI had failed to take action against known Al Qaeda fundraisers before 9/11.
* On 30 August 2004 Americans learned of more than 750 documented reports of federal air marshalls "sleeping on duty, lying, testing positive for alcohol or ilelgal drugs while on thejob or losing weapons," according to the Department of Homeland Security Inspector General.
* On 26 September 2004 the IG reported that the FBI had failed to translate more than 126,000 hours of terrorist-related wiretaps and other intercepts. Almost half of all FBI offices had computer snafus that may have caused Al Qaeda-related wiretaps to be deleted before they could be analyzed.
* Beginning in April 2001, the CIA repeatedly sent memos to the president warning that Al Qaeda was planning a major operation. According to the 9/11 Commission, the CIA "consistently described the upcoming attacks as occurring on a catastrophic level, indicating that they would cause the world to be in turmoil, consisting of possible multiple - but not necessarily simultaneous - attacks."
* For the previous few years, the CIA had issued several warnings that terrorists might fly commercial airplanes into buildings or cities.
* On 18 August 2001, Minneapolis FBI agents sent a 26-page memo to FBI HQ warning that Moussaoui was acting "with others yet unknown" in a hijack conspiracy. Three days later they sent a memo stating that if Massaoui "seizes an aircraft flying from Heathrow to New York City, it will have enough fuel on boardtor each D.C." FBI agents in Minneapolis could easily have gotten a search warrant from a federal judge - if they hadn't been hogtied by FBI HQ.
* Ashcroft told the 9/11 Commission that FBI agents "sought approval for a criminal search warrant to search his computer. The warrant was rejected because FBI officials feared breaching the wall." Ashcroft's statement is simply NOT TRUE. Actually, FBI agents in Minneapolis asked FBI HQ for permission to request a search warrant from a federal judge in Minnesota (which would not have involved "the wall"). FBI HQ refused the request, instead insisting that the Minnesota FBI agents file a request for a FISA search warrant - which had to be handled by FBI agents in HQ. FBI HQ incorrectly insisted that FISA required Minneapolis agents to prove that Massaoui was linked to a foreign power before a search warrant would issue. Because French intelligence indicated that Massaoui might be linked to Chechen resistance, FBI HQ insisted that Minneapolis agents find evidence connecting the Chechen reistance to a recognized terrorist organization. The Senate Judiciary Committee concluded in a 2003 report that "it is difficult to understand how the agents whose job included such a heavy FISA component could not have understood" the FISA law.
* Although Ashcroft blamed "the wall," the New York Times reported that prior to the 9/11 terrorist attacks, "Ashcroft had resisted signing emergency warrants that would have allowed eavesdropping int errorism investigations, apparently because he had only a rudimentary knowledge of how the warrant process worked," according to 9/11 Commisison officials.

Government incompetence was a far greater cause of 9/11 than were restrictions on government surveillance.
 
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