How can a few states defy Heller and ban the most protected firearm in the USA

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Zoogster

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Heller made it clear that 'in common use' was one of the criteria that would clearly help identify the most protected firearms.
Well the AR-15 is the most in common use firearm in the entire nation. McDonald ratified Heller against the states.
This means it is our basic constitutional right to own AR-15 rifles per Heller.

If we do something against federal law we get prosecuted. Yet if we are protected by the Constitution and federal law we get no enforcement?

I see a double standard. Yes I know some lower courts are getting away with stripping any meaning from Heller and somehow ignoring the most in common use rifle as the most protected rifle. But they are clearly ignoring a very obvious ruling to do so and seem quite content to snub their noses at the highest court. Is the court really that much of a sham?
 
SCOTUS is split 4-4 on the 2nd amendment, at best. Do not expect the justices to take on a case until it can bring down a majority ruling, one way or another. For our side to win,we will need, as a minimum, the appointment of a new pro gun judge and possibly two.There are indicators that some of the pro-gun judges are only pro the guns they like - Heller was worded to effectively exclude machine guns, which are not in common usage, but they are not common due to prior regulation.

Federal judges are political animals, the difference from run of the mill politicians is they are only elected once. Lower court judges can read the wind as well as us. Those in favor of gun bans will uphold them as long as they feel there is no chance of being overturned by SCOTUS.
By writing decisions in favor of greater restrictions, by limiting what is considered in common use, they create precedents for anti-gun SCOTUS judges to quote and expand upon.
By continuing 'new' restrictions in place, eventually they will become 'grandfathered' because the restricted arms are no longer in common use and a future SCOTUS, pro or anti, may uphold them as being within the limits set by Heller & McDonald.

Judges serve for life. They can afford to play the long game.
 
The issue in Heller was keeping an ordinary handgun in the home. Justice Scalia raised the "common use" test in the context of ordinary handguns. He left plenty of room in that decision for the banning of AR-15's. In fact, by denigrating the Militia Clause, he made banning so-called "assault weapons" (the primary "militia" weapons) more likely. The Heller decision is not as gun-friendly as people think.
 
And as far as "protecting your rights" goes, the Supreme Court does not have an "enforcement arm" except for the President, who is supposed to enforce (or "execute") the laws through his Department of Justice.

We all know how well that works.

As one President has said, "Well they (the Supreme Court) made their decision, now let them enforce it."

And for normal mortals such as thee and me, we must usually violate a State or Federal law in the first place to appeal it through the Court system. This violation makes you risk prison time and a lot of money.

I don't have that time, and I don't have that money unless I can finagle a big-pocketed institution to fund the defense of my rights.

And I still risk the prison time if I/we lose.

Really works good for thee and me, don't it?

Terry, 230RN

REF:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia#Jackson.27s_responses
 
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The issue in Heller was keeping an ordinary handgun in the home. Justice Scalia raised the "common use" test in the context of ordinary handguns. He left plenty of room in that decision for the banning of AR-15's. In fact, by denigrating the Militia Clause, he made banning so-called "assault weapons" (the primary "militia" weapons) more likely. The Heller decision is not as gun-friendly as people think.

I thought that since day one!
 
Appellate courts, of which the Supreme Court is one of them, are reactionary. They are not and cannot be proactive in preventing laws that go against their rulings. Specifically it takes complaining up the Appellate court chain in order to get a court to say "this is unconstitutional, change it." They don't have a justice sitting at every state legislature proof reading the laws as they are being written. Other reasons have already been pointed out such as the Executive branch is in charge of enforcement of Supreme Court statutes.
 
The issue in Heller was keeping an ordinary handgun in the home. Justice Scalia raised the "common use" test in the context of ordinary handguns. He left plenty of room in that decision for the banning of AR-15's. In fact, by denigrating the Militia Clause, he made banning so-called "assault weapons" (the primary "militia" weapons) more likely. The Heller decision is not as gun-friendly as people think.

I highly disagree. Do words have meaning anymore?

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER said:
None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER said:
Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.

So the context in which "common use" was applied was in any and all WEAPONS and not just "handguns" that are protected by the second Amendment. Heller found and clearly states that prohibiting the carry of dangerous and unusual weapons was okay, but all other weapons that are in common use at the time, which encompasses AR15s and other assault rifles, are protected and can not be outright banned.
 
Heller made it clear that 'in common use' was one of the criteria that would clearly help identify the most protected firearms.
Well the AR-15 is the most in common use firearm in the entire nation. McDonald ratified Heller against the states.
This means it is our basic constitutional right to own AR-15 rifles per Heller.....
No, that means that according to you Heller means it's our basic constitutional right to own an AR-15. But as outlined many times in this Forum, that's not finally your call.

The Founding Fathers assigned the job of deciding what the Constitution means and how it applies to the federal courts (Constitution of the United States, Article III, Sections 1 and 2):
Section 1.


The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....
Section 2.


The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution,...​
The exercise of judicial power and the deciding of cases arising under the Constitution necessarily involves interpreting and applying the Constitution to the circumstances of the matter in controversy in order to decide the dispute. Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and well understood what the exercise of judicial power meant and entailed.

What our Constitution states and how it applies has been a matter for dispute almost as soon as the ink was dry. Hylton v. United States in 1796 appears to be the first major litigation involving a question of the interpretation and application of the Constitution. Then came Marbury v. Madison decided in 1803; and McCulloch v. Maryland was decided 10 years later, in 1813.

So, as the Founding Fathers provided in the Constitution, if there is disagreement about whether a law is constitutional, the matter is one within the province of the federal courts to decide. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177 -- 178):
...It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each.....

It's well settled law that under certain circumstance and to some extent a constitutionally protected right may be regulated. What those circumstance might be and the nature and extent of permissible regulation will be worked out by the courts. To do so, a court will consider, among other things, the nature of the right, the nature of the regulation, and the governmental purpose intended to be served.

For the purposes of illustration, let's consider the regulation of rights protected by the First Amendment. While the First Amendment protects freedom of speech, assembly and religion against laws that abridge those rights we know there has been a history of certain regulation of speech, assembly and religion. A few examples are:
  • Laws prohibiting such things as false advertising, fraud or misrepresentation, as well as laws requiring certain disclosures in connection with various transactions, would absolutely survive a challenge to their validity on Constitutional grounds even though such laws do impinge on the freedom of speech. Among other things, such laws serve compelling state interests related to promoting honest business and helping to preserve the integrity of commercial transactions. They tend to be only as broad as necessary to serve that function.

  • If you are offering securities or certain other types of investments to the public, your written solicitation materials will have to first be approved prior to use by one or more regulatory agencies. If you are selling medicines in interstate commerce, your labeling will have to be approved in advance by the FDA, and you will have to have demonstrated, through hard, scientific data, that any claims or representations made are true. These are also laws that abridge freedom of speech, and yet they are regularly enforced.

  • Laws respecting the time, place and manner of speech or assembly have also survived Constitutional challenges. Thus a municipality may require that organizers obtain a permit in order to hold an assembly or a parade and may prohibit such activities during, for example, the very early morning hours. Such regulations would be permitted only to the extent necessary to serve the compelling state interest of protecting public health and safety. Any such regulations, to be constitutionally permissible, could not consider the content of the speech or assembly; and they would need to be applied in an even handed manner based on set guidelines and not subject to the discretion of a public official. See, for example:

    • Hill v Colorado, 530 U.S. 703, 120 S.Ct. 2480, 147 L.Ed.2d 597 (2000), in which the Court, in upholding a Colorado law restricting protesting, educational or counseling activities within 100 feet of the entrance to a health facility, noted:
    • ...We are likewise persuaded that the statute is "narrowly tailored" to serve those interests and that it leaves open ample alternative channels for communication. As we have emphasized on more than one occasion, when a content-neutral regulation does not entirely foreclose any means of communication, it may satisfy the tailoring requirement...

    • Santa Monica Food Not Bombs v. Santa Monica, 450 F.3d 1022 (9th Cir., 2006) in which the court upheld a Santa Monica ordinance requiring a permit for public assemblies. In fact in Santa Monica Food Not Bombs the court specifically acknowledges that the ordinance may burden the protected right, noting, at pg 1038:
      ...A narrowly-tailored permitting regulation need not be the least restrictive means of furthering a locality's asserted interests. The regulation may not, however, burden substantially more speech than necessary to achieve a scheme's important goals. See United States v. Baugh, 187 F.3d 1037, 1043 (9th Cir.1999). "[T]he requirement of narrow tailoring is satisfied `so long as the . . . regulation promotes a substantial government interest that would be achieved less effectively absent the regulation.'" Ward, 491 U.S. at 799, 109 S.Ct. 2746 (quoting United States v. Albertini, 472 U.S. 675, 689, 105 S.Ct. 2897, 86 L.Ed.2d 536 (1985))...

  • In the leading case on prior restraint (Near v. State of Minnesota Olson, 283 U.S. 697, 51 S.Ct. 625, 75 L.Ed. 1357 (1931)) the Court in striking down a Minnesota statute allowing for the abatement, as a public nuisance, of malicious, scandalous and defamatory news analyzed in considerable detail and depth the scope and extent of the infringement of the freedom of press, the interests served and the availability of other and narrower remedies. And the Court then reached the conclusion that the statute went too far to be a permissible regulation.

    But nonetheless the Court also noted that certain interests, under certain circumstances would justify even prior restraint (Near, 283 U. S. 657, at 715 - 716):
    ...The objection has also been made that the principle as to immunity from previous restraint is stated too broadly, if every such restraint is deemed to be prohibited. That is undoubtedly true; the protection even as to previous restraint is not absolutely unlimited. But the limitation has been recognized only in exceptional cases. 'When a nation is at war many things that might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its error that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right.' Schenck v. United States, 249 U. S. 47, 52, 39 S. Ct. 247, 249, 63 L. Ed. 470. No one would question but that a government might prevent actual obstruction to its recruiting service or the publication of the sailing dates of transports or the number and location of troops.6 On similar grounds, the primary requirements of decency may be enforced against obscene publications. The security of the community life may be protected against incitements to acts of violence and the overthrow by force of orderly government. The constitutional guaranty of free speech does not 'protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force. Gompers v. Buck's Stove & Range Co., 221 U. S. 418, 139, 31 S. Ct. 492, 55 L. Ed. 797, 34 L. R. A. (N. S.) 874.' Schenck v. United States, supra. These limitations are not applicable here. Nor are we now concerned with questions as to the extent of authority to prevent publications in order to protect private rights according to the principles governing the exercise of the jurisdiction of courts of equity...

  • In the past, laws prohibiting polygamy have been upheld against challenges that they violate the right to free exercise of religion (Davis v. Beason, 133 U.S. 333, 10 S.Ct. 299, 33 L.Ed. 637 (1890)).

So in fact the reality is that rights protected by the Constitution may nonetheless be subject to some limited regulation. The foregoing discussion of First Amendment jurisprudence serves the limited purpose of demonstrating that the courts do permit limited regulation of a constitutionally protected right. There are numerous examples of laws sustained by the courts which abridge freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of association, and freedom of religion. And First Amendment jurisprudence also offers some clues as to how such regulations will be evaluated by the courts.

We can not expect, nor will we see, perfect correspondence between the regulation of rights protected by the First Amendment and the regulation of rights protected by the Second Amendment. First Amendment jurisprudence is quite mature at this point, but Second Amendment jurisprudence, in the wake of Heller, is in its infancy. However, we can expect some regulation of Second Amendment rights to be upheld by the courts.

With regard to any existing or possible future governmental actions which might be applied to limit, restrict or prohibit activities associated with the keeping and/or bearing of arms, here's essentially how things work:
  1. Any governmental action limiting, restricting or prohibiting activities associated with the keeping and/or bearing of arms is subject to judicial challenge.

  2. In the course of deciding Heller (District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. 570 (United States Supreme Court, 2008)) and McDonald (McDonald v. City of Chicago (Supreme Court, 2010, No. 08-1521)), the rulings made by the United States Supreme Court on matters of Constitutional Law, as necessary in making its decisions in those cases, are now binding precedent on all other courts. Now the Supreme Court has finally confirmed that (1) the Second Amendment describes an individual, and not a collective, right; and (2) that right is fundamental and applies against the States. This now lays the foundation for litigation to challenge other restrictions on the RKBA, and the rulings on matters of law necessarily made by the Supreme Court in Heller and McDonald will need to be followed by other courts in those cases.

  3. There is judicial authority going back well before Heller and McDonald for the proposition that constitutionally protected rights are subject to limited regulation by government. Any such regulation must pass some level of scrutiny. The lowest level of scrutiny sometimes applied to such regulation, "rational basis", appears to now have been taken off the table, based on some language in McDonald. And since the Court in McDonald has explicitly characterized the right described by the Second Amendment as fundamental, there is some possibility that highest level of scrutiny, "strict scrutiny" will apply, at least to some issues.

  4. The level of scrutiny between "rational basis" and "strict scrutiny" is "intermediate scrutiny." To satisfy the intermediate scrutiny test, it must be shown that the law or policy being challenged furthers an important government interest in a way substantially related to that interest.

  5. Whichever level of scrutiny may apply, the government, state or federal, seeking to have the regulation sustained will have the burden of convincing a court (and in some cases, ultimately the Supreme Court) that the regulation is acceptable under the applicable level of scrutiny.

  6. Second Amendment jurisprudence is still in its infancy. Until Heller in 2008, it was still in doubt whether the Second Amendment would be found to describe an individual or collective right. Until McDonald in 2010, the law was that the Second Amendment did not apply to the States (United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1876)). So the scope and extent of permissible regulation of rights described by the Second Amendment is still unclear.

  7. The bottom line is that Second Amendment jurisprudence will need to mature over time as these sorts of issues get litigated.
 
--------------------------------
Constitution as Ratified by the States
December 15, 1791
Preamble

Congress OF THE United States
begun and held at the City of New York, on Wednesday
the Fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.:

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.

----------------------

Then followed the first ten Amendments, Articles which we know as the Bill Of Rights.

There is judicial authority going back well before Heller and McDonald for the proposition that constitutionally protected rights are subject to limited regulation by government.

Oh, sorry. I must have misread or misconstrued that Preamble. I kind of thought that was "what the law is."

I'm not signing this so nobody will know who posted it.
 
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I maintain that any court cases with the supposed authority to modify the simple and plain english reading of "shall not be infringed" are invalid and cannot be legitimately cited to restrict that fundamental civil right after the fact.

And the Preamble (to the Bill Of Rights) is quite clear in trying to prevent misconstruction ot those following Articles.

Yes, the law "is" what it "is" and we have to follow it, but any jurists who offer the notion that the right expressed in the Second Article can be tinkered with are wrong. That's what the law "is," according to the Preamble to the Bill Of Rights.

We all know that one or several other of those amendments allow for changes "as provided by law."

But the Second Amendment does not.

We've gone round and round on this several times and I've been put down several times for expressing this opinon on this board.

But I must remain intrasigent in my position: The law is what it is, but the highest law of the land does not allow for anything but the strictest "interpretation" of the second Amendment as written in plain English. No review should consider any "opinions" or "decisions" after the date of ratification by the Congress Assembled.

That law is what it is.

Terry, 230RN
 
I maintain that any court cases with the supposed authority to modify the simple and plain english reading of "shall not be infringed" are invalid and cannot be legitimately cited to restrict that fundamental civil right after the fact.

You aren't one of those who believes any and all firearm regulation infringes on the constitution are you?
 
I maintain that any court cases with the supposed authority to modify the simple and plain english reading of "shall not be infringed" are invalid and cannot be legitimately cited to restrict that fundamental civil right after the fact.....

You're welcome to maintain anything you want, but no one really cares what you maintain; nor does what you maintain in any way affect real life in the real world. The world will continue to go about its business without regard to what you maintain.

...We've gone round and round on this several times and I've been put down several times for expressing this opinon on this board....
And you will continue to be.

This Forum is for discussion of reality -- what the law actually is and how it actually works in the real world -- whether we like it that way or not. One might think things ought to be different, and one is welcome to use the political and legal mechanisms built into our system to try to change things to better suit how he thinks they should be. But that's a completely different matter.

Here, we deal with what is.

...But I must remain intrasigent in my position: The law is what it is, but the highest law of the land does not allow for anything but the strictest "interpretation" of the second Amendment as written in plain English. No review should consider any "opinions" or "decisions" after the date of ratification by the Congress Assembled.

That law is what it is....

Only in your alternate universe.

What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.
 
You're asking that as if it would be a bad thing.
It would be a bad thing.

As the Heller Court reaffirmed, the Second Amendment right is not ‘unlimited,’ consistent with other rights, government may place reasonable restrictions on the Second Amendment right.

The issue therefore is not whether government can enact firearm regulatory measures – as indeed it is authorized to do so; rather, the issue is what regulatory measures are Constitutional and which are not, and it’s the role and responsibility of the courts to make that determination, as they are authorized to do by the Constitution.
 
Reading over everything above and keeping in mind what I think the OP's sentiment is, it seems to me, the bulk of what caused this mess is what level of scrutiny should be applied.

(Of course, there are other things that have happened such as figuring out what the definition of words were/are and should the Constitution be read with an originist view or living document view but for the most part, those issues have been largely settled where-as 'scrutiny' hasn't.)

What didn't happen over 200 years ago, and continued over almost 2 centuries in regards to the Amendments, is that the BOR should (imo) have been viewed automatically with strict scrutiny and all other Amendments be assigned a scrutiny level when proposed and ratified.


However, that isn't what happened and that's not the reality of the world we live in which means it's also not the reality of courts that we work with.



Frank, in regards to your comment that the 2A is in a more infentile stage than the 1A.... I'm curious to know if you think that it is as compared to the other 8 BORs and why.

I'm not looking for a long detailed reply to argue about. I'm just curious what your thoughts are.

Im not sure why I think it, or at least not really able to articulate it well, ... but I think it is. And that is why, imo, that the 2A is the most differently interpreted Amendment of the BORs between different states. For example, all of the states seem to have far more consistant application of the 1A than the 2A.

Sorry, didn't mean to thread drift too much. Maybe this a PM question if it cant be related to the OP well.


Happy Holidays every one.
 
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What didn't happen over 200 years ago, and continued over almost 2 centuries in regards to the Amendments, is that the BOR should (imo) have been viewed automatically with strict scrutiny and all other Amendments be assigned a scrutiny level when proposed and ratified.

This is both naïve and unfeasible.

It’s perfectly warranted and desirable for the constitutionality of laws and measures to be determined by the courts applying different levels of judicial review.
 
This is both naïve and unfeasible.

I never said or claimed anything to the effect of the opposite. Do you have a point with that?

It’s perfectly warranted and desirable for the constitutionality of laws and measures to be determined by the courts applying different levels of judicial review.

Desirable? Well, that is an opinion you're centainly entitled to have.

Once SCOTUS determines the level of scrutiny, isnt that what the lower courts are to use in such cases that are substantially similar? Or do the lower courts get to make up which level they want to apply after SCOTUS makes that determination?
 
You're asking that as if it would be a bad thing.

It would be because if you want to go by the Second Amendment as written in plain English, it does not say that any regulation would be an infringement.

Second Amendment said:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Merriam-Webster dictionary said:
infringe: too do something that does not obey or follow (a rule, law, etc.) ( chiefly US )
: to wrongly limit or restrict (something, such as another person's rights)

SCOTUS has found, for one example, the long held ban on felons, inmates, and the like with regards to firearm was NOT an "infringement" because that ban did not "wrongfully" limit a criminal's 2A Rights whereas the de facto gun ban in Heller and McDonald did "wrongfully" restrict aka "infringe" on 2A Rights... Like wise with a copyrighted material... Walmart does not "infringe" on a movie's copyright by selling DVDs, but someone who bootlegs the movie and sells it is "wrongfully" doing so thus he's "infringing" on the copyright...

Also, there has always been and always will be restrictions placed on the Second Amendment. The SCOTUS gets the final say so in what's infringement and what's not infringement aka what laws wrongfully restrict the 2A. The Constitution "vested" the Supreme Court with this power, and not you. You're "opinion" does not count, their's does. It's their opinion that some restrictions can be placed on all of the Amendments.
 
....Frank, in regards to your comment that the 2A is in a more infentile stage than the 1A.... I'm curious to know if you think that it is as compared to the other 8 BORs and why.....

Yes, I think that Second Amendment jurisprudence is at the very earliest stages, especially compared with other enumerated rights. I think that because we really couldn't get started until Heller and McDonald. Those cases finally settled the two major open questions: (1) the Second Amendment protects an individual, personal right (not a collective right); and (2) it applies to the States. And so those cases are in a sense the foundation on which Second Amendment jurisprudence will be built.
 
Yes, I think that Second Amendment jurisprudence is at the very earliest stages, especially compared with other enumerated rights.

I agree, wherefore my comments representing one side of the spectrum of legal outcomes. The other side of that spectrum results in, as one legislator has put it, "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in."

If "we" enter this debate stage offering compromises at the outset, we will have already lost that right altogether. We will have opened the door to successive interpretative compromises until "their" goal of turning them all in becomes the most "reasonable" interpretation.

Hence my intransigence.

Terry, 230RN

REF (~0:18ff):

(Note: She was referring to the Assault Weapons Ban, but it begs the question "and what else?")
 
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Yes, I think that Second Amendment jurisprudence is at the very earliest stages, especially compared with other enumerated rights. I think that because we really couldn't get started until Heller and McDonald. Those cases finally settled the two major open questions: (1) the Second Amendment protects an individual, personal right (not a collective right); and (2) it applies to the States. And so those cases are in a sense the foundation on which Second Amendment jurisprudence will be built.
Isn't the definition of "keep and bear arms" still undecided? May issue jurisdictions only allow the "keeping" part, I'm allowed to have a firearm in my home (and a few other places on a list defined as being similar to one's home), but if I'm not allowed to carry a firearm on my person when walking down the street, I don't see how I have the right to "bear" arms. This exact point was weasled out of by the 9th Circuit in their en banc review of Peruta, where they refused to consider the point that since California prohibits open carry, denying concealed carry as well effectively denies the right to "bear" arms.
 
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