How close to a national CCW law?

[Boss Spearman]

States' rights only apply to rights not specified in the Bill of Rights.
All states and cities who do not allow their citizens to carry weapons if they're not criminals are violating the Bill of Rights.

 

[Control Group]

There are three related issues when it comes to national CCW, or national CCW reciprocity (two very different ideas).

The first is whether or not the 2nd does or should fall under the umbrella of the 14th. Obviously, current doctrine is that it doesn't (the SCOTUS has not seen fit to "selectively incorporate" the 2nd), but there's an easy case to be made that it should. While the states' rights argument is conceptually valid, until the 14th is repealed, it simply doesn't have any legal standing (we can argue until the cows come home about whether or not the 14th is valid, but unless it's removed from the Constitution, it's the law of the land). Incorporation of the 2nd as an individual right under the 14th is, at least in my mind, the "holy grail" of the RKBA fight in this country.

The second is whether CCW itself is a second amendment issue, and, much though I wish it were otherwise, I don't necessarily think that it is (I'm open to arguments on it, though). The right to carry a firearm at all times is guaranteed under the 2nd, but the right to carry it concealed isn't. In my opinion, no state has the right to tell me I can't carry a gun, but states do have the right to tell me it has to be in plain view* (or, alternatively, that it has to be concealed).

There's certainly a point of view that any law which restricts how I carry a gun infringes my right to bear arms, but I don't hold with it. For example, I'm fine with laws that prohibit me from carrying a gun by aiming it at passers-by while I walk down the street.

Third, of course, is the full faith & credit clause of the Constitution, and whether this means that every state has a responsibility to recognize the licenses granted by others. This one is a resounding "no." I know it doesn't apply to lawyers, doctors, or nurses, so I imagine it doesn't apply to teachers, veterinarians, barbers, or anyone else professionally licensed by a state. Insofar as CCW is a licensed privilege (see point #2 above), it does not fall under the full faith & credit clause. The DL issue is one that the states worked out between themselves; each state has chosen to recognize the DL of every other state (this "Real ID" thing will probably have some sort of impact on this, but we've yet to see what).

*Yes, I realize this opens the door to onerous and/or unmeetable requirements for "plain view" and/or "concealed," but those would be their own violations of the 2nd. The principle, IMHO, is sound.

 

[Smurfslayer]

Nobody seems to have mentioned...

that the "more equal" animals on the farm already have nationwide carry. We can thank our benevolent masters at NRA-ILA, LEAA, FOP and many more for ramming it through. This was supposed to be a "first step" to help permit holders get the same privilege. Let's list all the help these groups have provided since the "protection for cops, but to hell with the rest of you" law:

...
...
...
...

Anybody know of any single thing that LEAA (for example) has done since getting nationwide carry for police that would enhance the privilege for citizens other than police?

How about FOP?
NRA-ILA?

Some of you seem offended by the fed stepping in on our side after decades of stepping in against us. In fact, it seems that we're cutting our nose of to spite our face at the prospect of compelling states to honor other permits. I for one wouldn't have my feelings hurt in the least if the fed compelled New Joizey to honor permits, NY too.

I for one would much rather see groups like ... LEAA, FOP, NRA-ILA jump into the fray by coming out with "LE nationwide carry a rousing success, time for other citizens to have the same protections"

 

[RevDisk]

Third, of course, is the full faith & credit clause of the Constitution, and whether this means that every state has a responsibility to recognize the licenses granted by others. This one is a resounding "no." I know it doesn't apply to lawyers, doctors, or nurses, so I imagine it doesn't apply to teachers, veterinarians, barbers, or anyone else professionally licensed by a state. Insofar as CCW is a licensed privilege (see point #2 above), it does not fall under the full faith & credit clause. The DL issue is one that the states worked out between themselves; each state has chosen to recognize the DL of every other state (this "Real ID" thing will probably have some sort of impact on this, but we've yet to see what).

Licensed privilege? Ah... Perhaps you are from a state that does not codify the right to bear arms in defense of oneself in your state constitution. In some shall-issue states, it is a right.

I'm mostly familiar with PA. In PA, it is a right. You do not have to prove yourself worthy to get a CCW, the state must prove you are unworthy. (alcohol problems, criminal record, whatever.) Basically, anyone legally allowed to own a firearm is legally allowed to CCW one. A driver's license is a privilege, for which you must prove yourself capable of possessing. A CCW is a right, for which to deny, the state must prove that you are not legally allowed to exercise.

The minor fee and filling out a form I see as an official mordida. Simply the govt wanting a small "bite". Annoying, yes. Illegal, probably. It's simply the cost of govt being the govt. According to our (state) Constitution, we should have Vermont or Alaska style CCW.

Sorta like voting. You have to register to vote, but the state cannot deny you the right to vote without proving just cause. (felony conviction, whatever)

The problem is that some other states do not believe CCW is a right. They believe it is a priviledge. I have no desire to give up my civil liberties because some other states do not have the same protections codified in their state constitutions.


38SnubFan's suggestion is the best one I heard yet. A Federal CCW and a State level CCW. A federal CCW would be akin to a driver's license, a privilege. A state level CCW would be subject to that state's Constitution.

 

[Control Group]

WI does, in fact, recognize the right carry arms in self-defense, and I would never argue that such isn't a right. WI, however, demands that you open carry.* Carrying arms concealed, however, is not necessarily a right. No state should prevent you from exercising your right to bear arms, but nowhere does the 2nd say you have the right to bear concealed arms. I don't necessarily think that the state is in the wrong if it mandates that the weapon you carry be exposed (or that it be concealed, for that matter), as long as it isn't infringing your right to carry that weapon.

Which is what I meant when I referred to CCW as a licensed privilege. Your right to carry a gun should not be infringed in any state, no matter where you're from. That's the 2nd, the 14th, and a recognition of a natural right to self-defense. However, the manner in which you carry that gun can be legally addressed.

To call upon a somewhat over-used analogy, your fundamental right to free speech is not unjustly infringed if a state passes a law saying you may not yell through a megaphone on a public corner at 3 in the morning. In may be the opinion of some states that people carrying concealed leads to public nervousness. It may be the opinion in others that open carrying amounts to an overt threat. As long as every citizen is legally, practically, and easily able to carry a gun, RKBA has not been infringed.

In that environment, it is not necessarily legitimate to demand that the population of one state respect the decisions of the population of another state.

*As a practical matter, this means WI has banned carrying guns, since open carrying in any metro area will get you hassled by the police at the very least. But this is an example of violating RKBA in application, not necessarily in principle. In principle, I can carry anywhere in the state.

 

[mtnbkr]

Our 'lax standards' limit the number of states we with which have reciprocity. Oh well.

Yeah, but it's sooo easy to get a non-resident permit in Pa. I got mine entirely through the mail and in less than two weeks!

Of course, Pa must think I'm going to teleport to their fine state since to get there I'd have to cross Md.

Chris

 

[pete f]

How about this. the next time we get a majority of republicans in both houses, and a rep president, they decide to honor the 2nd ammendment and codify that if you are not a felon, or a prohibited individual, that you can carry. period. oh wait that would be sensible. no CCW no bull crap.. If you obey the law you get your rights guaranteed. otherwise jail time.