How Deep Does it Have to Get?

[bountyhunter]

Before the Bush defenders admit the BS and scream "ENOUGH!"

This speaks for itself:

"But, it turns out, two days before the president told Powell (about the plans to go to war), Cheney and Rumsfeld had already briefed Prince Bandar, the Saudi ambassador.

â€Saturday, Jan. 11, with the president's permission, Cheney and Rumsfeld call Bandar to Cheney's West Wing office, and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Gen. Myers, is there with a top-secret map of the war plan. And it says, ‘Top secret. No foreign.’ No foreign means no foreigners are supposed to see this,†says Woodward.

“They describe in detail the war plan for Bandar. And so Bandar, who's skeptical because he knows in the first Gulf War we didn't get Saddam out, so he says to Cheney and Rumsfeld, ‘So Saddam this time is gonna be out, period?’ And Cheney - who has said nothing - says the following: ‘Prince Bandar, once we start, Saddam is toast.’"

After Bandar left, according to Woodward, Cheney said, “I wanted him to know that this is for real. We're really doing it."

But this wasn’t enough for Prince Bandar, who Woodward says wanted confirmation from the president. “Then, two days later, Bandar is called to meet with the president and the president says, ‘Their message is my message,’†says Woodward.

Prince Bandar enjoys easy access to the Oval Office. His family and the Bush family are close. And Woodward told 60 Minutes that Bandar has promised the president that Saudi Arabia will lower oil prices in the months before the election - to ensure the U.S. economy is strong on election day.

Woodward says that Bandar understood that economic conditions were key before a presidential election: “They’re [oil prices] high. And they could go down very quickly. That's the Saudi pledge. Certainly over the summer, or as we get closer to the election, they could increase production several million barrels a day and the price would drop significantly.â€

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/15/60minutes/main612067.shtml

So, GWB is not only in bed with the saudi's... covering up the fact that their country is the life blood of Al Qaeda.... he went so far as to violate national secrecy and reveal top secret plans to them just to make sure they were "on board" with the plan. Why don't we just let Bandar fly over and become our King?

 

[dshimm]

Just keep in mind that this is from Woodward's book, and he is one of the most agenda-driven lefties in journalism. Still may be true, but remember to take anything he says with a pinch of salt.

Another thing to consider -- has Bush foreign policy been noticeably more Saudi-friendly than any other American president's foreign policy over the past 50 years? I don't think so.

 

[Jim March]

First, the laws regarding "top secret access" are one thing the President CAN break, at his discretion, in his official capacity as military commander and head of the executive branch.

Hence, any such "top secret" stamp put on the document at a lower level is purely a suggestion for people at the level of Cheney and Dubya.

So was this a good idea or not?

Probably good. The saner elements of the House of Saud *are* worth dealing with and showing respect to, for the time being anyways. (It's the insane element connected with radical Wahabbis that are quite worrisome.)

 

[Jeff White]

Didn't Woodward allegedly interview William Casey when he was in a coma? What makes you think these revelations are any more credible?

This has as much credibility as saying that the Kerry campaign is coordinating with Osama bin laden for an attack in October to give the campaign a final push.

Richard Clarke, Seymour Hersh, Bob Woodward and the various media outlets are creating news to try to affect the election. When other people who would be in a position to know, come forward to verify these stories I'll give them some credibility. It's not 1974 any longer. The last book Woodward published that was credible was The Commanders. Everything else he's done has pretty much been discredited.

I guess the real question to ask here is when are the Bush haters going to stop grasping at every straw and every allegation to make Bush look bad. If you do a search on my posts here and at TFL, you'll find I'm not the administrations biggest fan. But I am able to look at all the information with a critical eye and make my own judgements as to what's fact and what's propaganda.

Jeff

 

[El Tejon]

Hmmm, so you're upset that we coorindated with other nations?

Where's all the whining about "unilateralism"?

Since the Lefties won't let us drill off the coasts or in Alaska, why shouldn't Bush play nice with the House of Saud for the time being? The Saudi royal family is a large hydra, we need to know which heads to cut off after we get a good start on our blockbusting.

 

[bountyhunter]

Didn't Woodward allegedly interview William Casey when he was in a coma? What makes you think these revelations are any more credible?

Because this information was obtained by interviewing Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, and even Bush himself... which I suppose could qulaify as interviewing a man in a coma, but you can hardly blame Woodward for the mental status of the present members of the administration.

 

[USGuns]

This is simple...

I have 2 simple things to say:

1) Don't believe everything you read.

2) No matter what, Kerry would be worse.

 

[bountyhunter]

Hmmm, so you're upset that we coorindated with other nations?

I'm upset that the president violated national security to reveal secret plans to a foreigner before he even bothered to inform the secretary of state. I'm upset that the arrogant SOB in charge of Saudi Arabia snaps his fingers and the top three people at the head of our government dance.

 

[bountyhunter]

But I am able to look at all the information with a critical eye and make my own judgements as to what's fact and what's propaganda.

So, according to you, information obtained via direct interviews with Cheney, Powell, and Bush is to be written off as "propoganda" because it shows the actual occurrances that don't make the administration look good?

OK, just checking.

 

[bountyhunter]

Another thing to consider -- has Bush foreign policy been noticeably more Saudi-friendly than any other American president's foreign policy over the past 50 years? I don't think so.

It's the first one to engage in a criminal conspiracy to cover up murders (the Kobar Towers "investigation"). This was clearly an Al qaeda operation, and the saudis prevented the FBI from conducting an investigation, culminating with the saudi's announcing they had the three guys who "confessed" and refused to even let the FBI interview them. The FBI officially lists the Kobar Towers murders as unsolved, by the way... they didn't buy the BS.

Further, the Bush admin censored 33 pages from an intel report detailing the saudi support and funding of Al qaeda to keep the lid on the pack of lies. I know governments do terrible things, but this is too much. All the while Bush is braying about how he will hold any country accountable for supporting terror, he covers up for the Mother of All Terror states.

 

[BigG]

Beam me up, Scotty.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

So, according to you, information obtained via direct interviews with Cheney, Powell, and Bush is to be written off as "propoganda" because it shows the actual occurrances that don't make the administration look good?

Let's be clear. The information presented here isn't obtained directly from interviews with the people involved. This information is obtained from Bob Woodward, who in turn claims to have obtained the information from said interviews. Whether or not to believe Woodward's claim is a decision the reader must make, based on Woodward's journalistic credibility and past history.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

So if you were going to invade Iraq, you wouldn't consider consulting one of our closest historical allies in the region first?

So, GWB is not only in bed with the saudi's... covering up the fact that their country is the life blood of Al Qaeda....

The United States was the life blood of the Irish Republican Army for quite some time and yet the British continued to be "in bed" with us during both liberal and conservative governments. In the long run, that solution worked much better for them.

I'm upset that the president violated national security to reveal secret plans to a foreigner before he even bothered to inform the secretary of state.

1) See above. I'd be much more concerned about a President who felt it unnecessary to at least talk to the Saudis before announcing plans to attack their neighbor. So I can hardly regard this as a violation of national security in a practical sense and it certainly isn't one in a legal sense.

2. Regarding the second allegation in your sentence, Condoleeza Rice comments:

"I just can't let this impression stand," Ms. Rice said on CBS. "The secretary of state was privy to all of the conversations with the president, all of the briefings for the president. They were in almost daily contact about what was going on at the United Nations."

She added: "It's just not the proper impression that somehow Prince Bandar was in the know in the way that Secretary Powell was not. It's just not right. Secretary Powell had been privy to all of this. He knew what the war plan was."

As for Woodward, I disagree with the prevailling opinion of him here. In my experience he is an experienced journalist and reports fairly what he sees. His books do often have bias; but that is usually because the subjects of his investigations choose not to cooperate and Woodward is happy to report observations from whatever sides will cooperate. This probably played no small part in the decision of the White House to cooperate.

I haven't read the latest book and probably won't but I suspect what we are seeing here is less Bob Woodward's bias and more the press bias. Look at bountyhunter's breathless write up of the story. From his point of view it is a startling conspiracy of government... from mine it is routine business of foreign policy. I imagine you could use Woodward's new book as a springboard for either view depending on what you wanted to push.

Regardless, Woodward benefits in the form of more book sales and as a lifetime journalist, I'm sure Woodward has no small number of people who would willingly write a piece on his book to help it along.

 

[Diggler]

I think the only thing that's upsetting anyone is the following...

Democrats aren't in power in the House, Senate or the Presidency.

 

[45Hoop]

Fishing can be alot of fun.........
but all the trolling I see of late is really getting old.....

I'm with El.......

Since the Lefties won't let us drill off the coasts or in Alaska, why shouldn't Bush play nice with the House of Saud for the time being?

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Hmmm, so you're upset that we coorindated with other nations?

Where's all the whining about "unilateralism"?

Since the Lefties won't let us drill off the coasts or in Alaska, why shouldn't Bush play nice with the House of Saud for the time being? The Saudi royal family is a large hydra, we need to know which heads to cut off after we get a good start on our blockbusting.

El T, you silly boy. Don't you know that leftists can be on 7 sides of an issue (and still be wrong), get what they want and not be happy, and make no sense whatsoever and demand that eveyone acknowledge their POV.

 

[USMC_2674]

Look bounty-hunter. I lived in Riyadh for 9 years growing up. My father worked directly for Prince Salman and I worked there as well. I have met King Fahd, Prince Bandar, and have eaten dinner many times with Prince Salman.

They are good people... especially Salman. They are good allies. Many of the other royal family is NOT. I am getting sick and tired of everyone claiming the Royal Family of Saudi is corrupt and evil. The government IS corrupt, but it certainly is not evil. Unless of course you consider EVERY government on earth evil (which I am sure many of you do).

Showing plans to Prince Bandar was no more a break in national security then it being shown to Powell or any other trusted advisor. Yes, I said advisor. Prince Bandar and his "people" (not the radicals) want one thing... money. They can't make money if the US shuts down their oil ops, so they WANT the US to succeed. They don't want terrorists destroying the US and they don't want to share information with the likes of that POS Sadaam.

Well, since you rarely care about first hand accounts and experiences Bounty-hunter, instead relying on garbage information from the media, you probably won't care what I said above.

But, I wish you luck

Semper Fidelis

 

[flatrock]

I find it very surprising that Cheny would talk to the Saudi embassador before Powell knew of the plans. Considering that there's no one else claiming this, and that Woodward isn't exactly an unbiased source, I don't find his comments very credible.

quote:Hmmm, so you're upset that we coorindated with other nations?

I'm upset that the president violated national security to reveal secret plans to a foreigner before he even bothered to inform the secretary of state. I'm upset that the arrogant SOB in charge of Saudi Arabia snaps his fingers and the top three people at the head of our government dance.

Ummm... THe President has the authority to decide to discuss such information with foreign embassadors. He didn't violate national security in doing so.

How do you really expect the US to have attacked a Iraq without discussing it with our "allies" in the region. I will agree that the Saudi's are hardly the best of allies, but we do need to discuss such issues with them.

Woodward told 60 Minutes that Bandar has promised the president that Saudi Arabia will lower oil prices in the months before the election - to ensure the U.S. economy is strong on election day.

You're telling me that an embassador who's supposed to be good friends with Bush just let it slip that his nation is going to drop their oil prices just before the election to help Bush?

Do you really thing the Saudi embassador is that much of an idiot?

I'll give you a little hint about gas prices. They historically go up at the beginning of summer as the refineries switch over to the summer formula's they're required to produce then. They drop back down towards fall.

How deep does it have to get before Bush defenders admit the BS and scream "ENOUGH"?

Ok, ENOUGH!

Enough with the transparent lies from the far left.

Enough with flip flopping on issues and saying the current administration is wrong no matter what they did.

Enough with the low standards for truth, accuracy, and integrity in the media.

Enough of defending your opinions with lies and blatantly scewed statistics.

Enough already. If your cause is just, defend it and support it with the truth.

 

[Jeff White]

Bountyhunter said;

Because this information was obtained by interviewing Cheney, Rumsfeld,Powell, and even Bush himself...

So explain this? Maybe Powell was sleeping when Woodward interviewed him? Or maybe Woodward just made up the story to make it more readable and interesting. Either way, once again he's lost all credibility.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040419/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/powell_interview_1
White House - AP Cabinet & State
AP
Powell Denies He Was Out of Loop on Iraq

1 hour, 4 minutes ago
By BARRY SCHWEID, AP Diplomatic Writer

WASHINGTON - Denying he was out of the loop or hesitant about taking on Saddam Hussein, Secretary of State Colin Powell said Monday he was committed to President Bush's war plan in the event diplomacy failed at the United Nations last year.

"I was as committed as anyone else to seeing an end to this regime, the destruction of this regime that put people in mass graves," Powell told The Associated Press in an interview.

Disputing an account by Bob Woodward in a new book, "Plan of Attack," Powell said Bush and all his national security advisers had agreed in August 2002 to ask the U.N. Security Council to seek a peaceful resolution and to go to war if the effort failed.

Powell dismissed Woodward's suggestion that Bush already had made up his mind by Jan. 11 last year to go to war against Iraq (news - web sites) and that Saudi Arabia's ambassador to Washington, Prince Bandar, had been informed of the decision that day.

Asserting that the final decision did not come until March, Powell said he was "intimately familiar with the plan and I was aware that Prince Bandar was being briefed on the plan."

"I knew as much as anybody," Powell said.

Asked about Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) — Woodward wrote that the two were barely on speaking terms — Powell described the relationship as excellent.

On another subject, Powell said one or two countries may follow Spain's lead and withdraw its troops from Iraq. He said he expected the United Nations to approve a resolution on peacekeeping before the end of the U.S. occupation June 30.

And, on the Middle East, Powell said the Palestinians should seize the opportunity of a promised Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and part of the West Bank. He said Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia was being undercut by Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) as predecessor Abu Mazzen had been before resigning.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Seems like someone was watching "60 Minutes" last night. Did you de-louse? Watching Mike Wallace was like watching a pig in mud. He was trying to elicit an anti-Bush spin from Woodward with every question.

Wallace was aghast that Bush & Co. were planning the Iraq invasion while diplomatic talks were still underway. Has Wallace ever heard of "contingency" plans?

Similarly, the shock that we would confide with a diplomatic representative of one of our closest "allies" in the ME regarding invading their neighbor seems feigned. If we were contemplating invading France, does anyone doubt that we'd talk to Blair about it?

 

[SemperFi83]

And we would be better off under Gore, HOW? Oh, yeah, keep feeding the alligator and maybe he will eat us last.

 

[thefitzvh]

Every day I come on the highroad to read threads, and every day is another day that someone posts an article discrediting the bush administration, almost always written by a journalist who's been REPEATEDLY discredited in the past.

Thus, the posters have been discredited as well..


Same s**t, different toilet.



James

 

[Waitone]

Saudi has been buds with every US administration since Nixon, IIRC. Saudi's position in the oil market is a shock absorber. It has huge reserves and refinery capacity far in excess of its needs. Reason, keep oil prices non-volitile. There has been many an occasion over the years where saudi pulled the US's bacon out of the fire when other oil exporting companies wanted to stick us.

If you are so concerned with Bush talking with Saudi reps, are you equally concerned with the permanent residence Saudi reps set up in Little Rock before and during the last president's reign?

***<Yawnnnnnn>***

 

[HKUSP40]

Woodie ward LOL...OH Come on dont believe everything you read.
HKUSP40

 

[grampster]

I listened to an interview with Powell on the radio today discussing all the issues brought up in Woodward's "book". Funny how he dubunked all the slanted spin the networks spun on the news tonight about what it was they thought Woodward said he thought what Powell said. They treated Woodward as the second coming of Walter Cronkite, and carefully editied Powell's comments to support Woodward's drivel. If I hadn't listened to Powell, out of his own mouth tell THE WHOLE STORY about his comments, and what the significance of them were, IN CONTEXT, then I might consider coming to the same conclusion as Bountyhunter and make a fool out of myself by believing what someone else said about something someone else said. I rather choose to listen to what the original person says in the context of which it occured. You get a better picture.
Honest to God, watching the news tonight was sickening. What is more sickening is how easily people are led by propaganda.
I am not happy that some people in this world are so hateful that they want to kill me just because I don't meet their criteria of how I should live my life. I am a free man fettered by some constraints that serve, mostly, the common good. I would like to leave you alone if you leave me alone. We can trade with each other for what we need. I frankly don't give a rat's behind what you do within your own borders...just don't export your hate. You don't like that and want to blow me up or butcher my kids? Then guess what, I'm stronger than you and you will die first. I would just as soon believe that because you are a stone age sheep herder who wields a sword from the back of a camel and lies to and kills your neighbor while stealing his woman, you could contain yourself and not risk my wrath by threatening me. You can't so I am forced to kill you as a result. I for one am glad I have a leader who is willing to commit to those principles. Sadly, might does make right. It is the natural order of things. If you test that addage, mostly, you will be trampled as a result. Don't spit into the wind, or tug on Superman's cape, or screw around with the junkyard dog. You get what you ask for. Too bad some shallow, naive folks can't seem to understand the reality of the world.