How did NC's permit system come about?

[Beagle-zebub]

How did this come about? You need a permit for each handgun, and must convince the county sheriff of the need for each successive permit issuance. Call me crazy, but that sounds out of sync with the laws that I understand as being in effect in SC, VA, GA, FL, and most other Southern states. What gives? How did this come to be, and how does it persist? (It stinks of academia, but that's not an answer.)

 

[Tim Burke]

I suspect it was designed to keep handguns out of the hands of undesirables.
It's worth getting your CCW just to bypass the permit system.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Ahhhh, CCW license...that's a nice loop-hole, at least seeing as how they are a shall-issue state.

Edit: But if it was "undesirables," who were they? That could mean anyone from black people to gun nuts to sharecroppers to circus clowns (as if they weren't scary enough) to non-governmental peons. Probably was the circus clowns....

 

[NC Dave]

From the North Carolina Rifle and Pistol Association website. They explain it pretty well.

Q: What is the deal with this Pistol Purchase Permit law? I moved from one NC county to another and found that the Sheriffs of each county have vastly different requirements for getting Permits. Isn't this covered by State law?

A: The Pistol Purchase Permit law was passed in 1919, and is a classic piece of Jim Crow-era legislation (Jim Crow History). The recognition of civil rights for blacks and other minorities meant that the Constitution applied to minorities. This meant that blacks and other minorities could exercise their natural right to self-defense, with the full support of the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution and Article I, Sec. 30 of the North Carolina Constitution. This did not sit well with the Ku Klux Klan (which for many years was headquartered in Raleigh, just down the street from the Legislature) and other racist groups and influential individuals. The racist members of the State Legislature knew they could not overtly prevent minorities from purchasing handguns for protection, so the seemingly innocent Pistol Purchase Permit law was passed. This law allowed local Sheriffs and government officials to discriminate with impunity at the local level.

Even today, the Pistol Purchase Permit law is implemented in an arbitrary and capricious fashion by 100 individual County Sheriffs. Some Sheriffs do little more than collect the fees and hand out permits to the law-abiding, because more than that is not necessary. Others implement ridiculous, intrusive requirements that either discriminate on a wholesale basis or are selectively applied so that discrimination can be more personalized.

With the advent of the National Instant Check System (NICS) there is no public safety reason why the Pistol Purchase Permit system needs to continue. The Jim Crow era is over, and the laws of that era need to be eliminated. Most people agree with that in principle, but for some reason when it comes to guns a significant number of people seem to think that discrimination and arbitrary requirements are a good thing. This is something NCRPA totally disagrees with.

We have been trying for 10 years to get the Pistol Purchase Permit system completely eliminated. Apparently when it comes to gun control a lot of people think Jim Crow is still a good idea.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

It'd be interesting to do a large-scale study on who does and doesn't get approved for CC in a shall-issue state, and see where there is statistically-significant evidence of discrimination. I don't know how hard it would be to verify every participant's clean bankground, but I imagine that it'd be easier than controlling for automobile variations in a study on prejudice in traffic stops. (You'd pretty much need to have both the control and variable subjects driving the same car in the same way in the same area, which would miss discrepancies in the operation of other kinds of motor vehicles, would probably compromise the test when the cops pull over the same car repeatedly, and would require a buttload of driving.)

 

[Tim Burke]

But if it was "undesirables," who were they?

Mostly blacks, I'd guess, but probably Republicans and Catholics, too- whoever the Sheriff thinks shouldn't have a handgun.

 

[GarySTL]

Missouri had a similar law until August of last year when it was finally repealed. Some Sheriffs would issue a permit in 20 minutes or so, while others would make you wait the full seven days the law allowed. The permit was issued in most, but not all cases, but it still was an unnecessary requirement.

Good luck in getting yours repealed.

 

[WildeKurt]

I thought the FOID foolishness along with IL's waiting period was odd untill I heard of NC's system for pistols. At least you can get CCW permits.

 

[RNB65]

(It stinks of academia, but that's not an answer.)

Nope, not academia. Institutionalized racism. Still alive and well in NC.
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[M2Pilot]

I think Tim Burke got it right.

 

[abrink]

Purchase permits (well at least for me anyway) In the state of NC are pretty easy to get. Not to much paperwork and you can get 5 at a time. Of course sometimes i wish i lived in VA where no permits are required but what are u gonna do?

 

[rantingredneck]

Short of getting the law repealed, a CCW is the best answer. OOOOhhhhh so much easier.

Go to a gunshow and find a handgun for a good deal, but you hadn't been planning on finding one. No worries. Just whip out the CCW and your $.

 

[RNB65]

Of course sometimes i wish i lived in VA where no permits are required but what are u gonna do?

Move to VA. That's what I did.
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[Killermonkey21]

Yeaaaah. The whole moving thing...stationed on active duty in NC...*shrug* Thats what Permanent Change of Station's are for.

 

[El Tejon]

Beagle, after Federal troops were withdrawn during the Compromise of 1877, the Southern Media was pushing for "Son of Ham" laws to oppress the freed slaves that the Federal troops had protected, however marginally against Southern racism.

Anti-RKBA laws were very common in the South, before and after the Civil War. Of course, they were applied to only segments of the population as the Supreme Court of Florida observed:

"The statute [infringing upon the individual's right to bear arms] was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice was never been so applied." Watson v. Stone, 4 So. 2d 700, 703 (Fla. 1941) (Buford, J., concurring specially).

 

[NC Dave]

Purchase permits (well at least for me anyway) In the state of NC are pretty easy to get. Not to much paperwork and you can get 5 at a time.

I never had a problem getting permits before I got my CHP either.

The problem is that there are 100 counties in NC and 100 different "rules" for issuing handgun purchase permits. A valid reason to deny a pistol purchase permit in NC is if the Sheriff "is not fully satisfied with the applicant's good moral character." If a sheriff says "I don't think so." for whatever reason they feel like saying, you would have to appeal his decision to the Chief District Court Judge for the district in which you made the application.

That's just one of the many reasons of why the law, as written, is bad.

 

[YodaVader]

My solution to the pistol purchase permit annoyance was to move out of NC in 1988. Moved up here to IN and within a few months had a carry permit that lasted 4 years and could buy handguns with it during that time. Even if I did not carry a permit I still did not have to visit any law enforcement agency to buy purchase permits.

My actual reason for moving was finding a job where I could actually make a living - but the guns are less expensive here and I like the gun laws as well.

I suppose if I could find a job back in NC I might move back. I have bought most of what I want since moving up here.

 

[Conqueror]

Purchase permits (well at least for me anyway) In the state of NC are pretty easy to get.

That's definitely not universal. For example:

I grew up in Henderson County, NC. Getting a PPP required a visit to the Sheriff's office. 5 minutes to fill out a single form, then come back in ~5 business days to pick up your permit.

I now live in Orange County, NC. Getting a PPP requires a visit to the Sheriff's office to pick up 4 forms. You take them home and fill out one of them. The other three you give to unrelated friends of yours, who then have to accompany you to the county courthouse to sign notarized, sworn affadavits attesting to your good character. You then take all 4 forms back to the Sheriff's office. After waiting a minimum of 30 days, you may call and inquire whether your permit is ready. Do not call before 30 days.

That's how screwed up NC is. It's why I got my CCW.

 

[The Freeholder]

I've never had a problem getting pistol permits, but having a CCL makes life much simpler.

 

[Green Lantern]

I thought the FOID foolishness along with IL's waiting period was odd untill I heard of NC's system for pistols. At least you can get CCW permits.

Our system really sucks and ought to be changed, but I'll take it over Illinois' ANY day of the week!

 

[soccergod04]

Anyone know how easy it is to get a permit in Moore or Wake County? Does the permit have to come from your permanent address? (I ask because I'm a college student, but list my address as being with the parents.)

 

[VirgilCaine]

My God, Conquerer, I had no idea it was that bad.

I mean, this should be an easy win, what with the racist implications of the law.

 

[Cel]

It is

It is relatively easy to get a permit where I'm at in NC (Fill out paperwork, pick up permits 5 days later) but the permit law is so stupid. I don't see the point of continually running you through a background check at the Sheriff's Office everytime you want a permit or permits and waiting five days when NICS is fully operative.

 

[Gray Peterson]

Btw

If the law has racist intent, it can be struck down. See: Hunter v. Underwood, and the Arlington Heights case.

 

[Zach S]

I grew up in Henderson County, NC. Getting a PPP required a visit to the Sheriff's office. 5 minutes to fill out a single form, then come back in ~5 business days to pick up your permit.

I now live in Orange County, NC. Getting a PPP requires a visit to the Sheriff's office to pick up 4 forms. You take them home and fill out one of them. The other three you give to unrelated friends of yours, who then have to accompany you to the county courthouse to sign notarized, sworn affadavits attesting to your good character. You then take all 4 forms back to the Sheriff's office. After waiting a minimum of 30 days, you may call and inquire whether your permit is ready. Do not call before 30 days.

I think things have changed in Henderson county since you left it. I've heard a lot of compalints from guys at the range who live in henderson county, and it seems like they had to go through what you had to in orange county. There were a lot of folks from Henderson taking the CC class in 08/04 and a while after...

I live across the line in Buncombe. In the time I've been buying pistols, I've had it pretty easy. Before Charlie retired(?) I'd go fill out the form, and we'd talk about guns and/or the good book (my name is Zachariah) while he was going over my application and I'd go back in five days. Sometimes I felt a little guilty about when listening to the guys from Henderson.