How do you "clean" dirty ammo?

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Jeeper,

Thanks. I've already considered many of the variables you've mentioned. I am going to address them as follows. Any ideas people have are welcome, that is what peer review is all about!


Ball vs extruded powder:
Use Blue Dot (large flake), WW231 (ball), and AA#9 (TI-ZINY!). Other suggestions?

Air gap in the case - Except for the round being fired, I could fill the cases up to a certain volume of each powder and compare it that way. For the rounds being fired, since they are being compared to themselves, it becomes relative to a degree, i.e. you can only affect volume so much with each powder before you are under/overcharged. However, a volumetric comparison, at say 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full (have to take into account volume occupied by bullet) wouldn't be difficult at all.

Time tumbled - will extract samples from the tumbler at 1 day intervals

Age of powder - we can assume that powder stored under normal conditions will not have degraded to the point that it should make a difference. It is commonly accepted that modern smokeless powder is very stable. Remember, each powder is compared to itself for parametric data so NBD there.

I'm going to piggy back this on some other experiments I'm running. Maybe you could host some of the other data? I'm trying to see if I can get some definitive data on the sorted v. unsorted v. trimmed v. reamed v. primer type v. every other Internet "myth" out there. The question I want to answer is whether it actually makes a difference in a handgun cartridge at a reasonable range. It will take me a while to put everything together once I get my components restocked so I'll PM you when I get the first sets of data from the case prep done.
 
Deavis,

I'll host whatever you want.

I figure you had already thought of those since they are intuitive. The air gap or volumetric one would be interesting to me. A compressed load versus a 1/2 filled load would be an interesting one. If the powder cant move then it shouldnt change. Rifle then should be more stable versus light pistol loads like I use. I dont think any powder will change much(or at all in results on chrono). Let me know what you want me to host and I'll make up some new pages for it on my website.

Keith
 
Seeing as Ball powder is probably the least likely to be affected by tumbling, I would suggest some extruded IMR as the test medium.

And, using 40 S&W really cuts down the amount of sample data. So long as we are looking at a scientific experiment, why don't you tumble a container half full of, say, IMR 4350 and then closely examine it afterwards?

Most rifle rounds SHOULD be 90% full of powder so the tumbling would have less effect on a loaded round than the test 50% container.

For demonstration purposes, it would be nice to create a 'worst case scenerio' to see if extended tumbling actually crushes or degrades the individual powder grains.

After extended tumbling, if you would want to load some rounds for firing....more power to you but there are SO many variables that if a small amount of powder damage HAS happened, it might get lost in the statistics. And, you might have a bad thing happen to your test gun which would NOT be good!

Microscopic examination of the tumbled grains vs. control would end the debate for me. Thanks for your efforts.
 
RecoilRob,

The only container that makes sense to tumble is a piece of brass with a bullet it in. Tumbling powder in anything else wouldn't be applicable to the question at hand. I picked 40 S&W because that is what I was planning to load next and it has a decent volume. I don't load rifle, so the closest we can get to a bottleneck would be a 357 Sig unless someone want to loan me a set of dies and a few bullets that I'll return at the end of the test.

SO many variables that if a small amount of powder damage HAS happened, it might get lost in the statistics.
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That really is the point though, right? Even if there is some small amount of damage, can you actually tell the difference when you shoot the round? If not, then the damage is of no consequence for that application. You expect that precision rifles at long range will show issues first but in this case I'm only interested in handguns because that is what I shoot.
 
Tumbling Loaded ammo

As a commercial police reloader I have tumbled all my live pistol ammo in a cement mixer with a bit of kerosene to leave a protective coating on the brass and lead bullets. I learned this from my mentor in the early 1970's and kept it a secret till he sold his business for a million dollars.

He loaded and tumbled 3 million rounds of police and commercial ammo a month and he was Ron Gromak of Gromak Industries of Santa Maria California.

His tumbler was 3 1/2 feet wide and 7 feet tall and he sold me his 3 ton lead smelter when he built himself a 25 ton capacity lead smelter. When I sold my business and retired I sold the small smelter back to him. I still have one of his delivery trucks a post office propane powered truck with a lift gate when he replaced it with an 18 wheel ammo delivery truck.

It is an interesting sight to see a gigantic steel warehouse built around and over his home and to see a stack of over 3 million primers on skids at once.
 
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Paul,

Even with comments from experts like you people still dont believe it. Maybe some science might prove it to them.
 
There's absolutely no reason to tumble handgun rounds as an experiment as to the effect of tumbling on loaded rifle rounds. The experiment is nonsensical. Since MOST of us don't lube straightwall handgun rounds, the practical use of the experiment's data is virtually nonexistent.
 
Getting back on topic, I found this on another website:

Here is a tip for Guns and Shooting Online readers who want to clean their brass but don't have a tumbler.

First, wash your cases with a solution of three parts water and one part toilet cleaning liquid. Put this in a plastic container, dump in the cases to be cleaned, and slosh it around for about three to five minutes. Then dump out the cases and rinse them well. Dry thoroughly.

The final step is to get a cotton pillow cover. Put a few pounds of corncob and polisher into the pillow cover. After washing and drying your cases, put them into the pillow cover and zip it closed or make a knot, leaving about 1/4 empty space.

Then put the filled pillow cover into a clothes dryer. Set the dryer for minimum heat (or none) and let it run for about 45 minutes. When you remove your brass it will have been cleaned and polished without a tumbler.
Click to expand...
 
There's absolutely no reason to tumble handgun rounds as an experiment as to the effect of tumbling on loaded rifle rounds. The experiment is nonsensical. Since MOST of us don't lube straightwall handgun rounds, the practical use of the experiment's data is virtually nonexistent.
Click to expand...

I would say that if you went by shear numbers that a large percentage (if not most) handgun ammo is lubed. Carbide dies or not many people use lubes like hornady one shot. Most competitive shooters(the ones who shoot most of the ammo) also lube since they know that it makes their progressive press run easier.
 
Thanks for the offer Deavis. I believe it will show no difference but there is nothing like real data to settle the issue. I can loan you the 357 Sig dies if you are interested in trying that caliber. I don't load 40 but it would stike me as being typical enough to satisfy a reasonable person.

As for variables, you mentioned getting different brass. I don't care about which brand it is (as long as it's the same) but I think new brass would be better. Not to give you an excuse to spend more money ;) but to ensure that a week of tumbling will not loosen some powder residue from the inside surface of the case. I realize that may be more realistic, but if it changes the velocity then it may look like powder breakdown when it isn't. I am assuming that like most of us you have no way to measure pressure directly but velocity would suit me fine.

For demonstration purposes, it would be nice to create a 'worst case scenerio' to see if extended tumbling actually crushes or degrades the individual powder grains.
Click to expand...

I believe Deavis is looking for a worst case scenario, but what would that be? Big case and small sharge? Almost full case? Flake, ball, extruded? If you have a suggestion as to the worst case condition for loaded ammo this is the time to bring it up.
 
Griz:

I've got 357 Sig dies and could load that if we were interested in bottleneck instead of straightwall. I mentioned above the idea for comparing some different powder types and then powder types. I think the most important thing will be the chrony data and then pictures under a microscope.

If someone wants to see a rifle caliber with a rod powder, I'd be happy to do it but I gave up the rifle dies I had since I don't shoot enough rifle to make it worthwhile for me at this point.

There's absolutely no reason to tumble handgun rounds as an experiment as to the effect of tumbling on loaded rifle rounds. The experiment is nonsensical. Since MOST of us don't lube straightwall handgun rounds, the practical use of the experiment's data is virtually nonexistent.
Click to expand...

For people who think the experiment is nonsensical, you don't need to keep
responding with useless comments. Unless you can come up with a scientific reason why this won't prove or disprove that tumbling affects powder (which most of you claim it does) granules. In that case, please feel free to share your ideas to improve it. Before you comment, please try to open your mind up a smidge.

Just so you guys know, it will be a few weeks until I can get the cases, bullets, and everything in order. After that it will take me a little time to get it chronoed, get the powder under a microscope and get photographs. I don't think I can convince anyone to put powder into an SEM, heh :p
 
I would be happy with the results from a 40 cal alone. But if there is someone who will only believe the results if the test includes a large stick powder, I can donate a some 243 brass if you want to fool with it. I think it would be cheaper to buy a pound of powder there than pay the haz-mat fee, so you would have to get some 4350 or other suitable powder.
 
Griz,

I've got some stick powders here that are left over from when I loaded some rifle ammo for a friend. I'll throw them into a case at different volumes and see how they do as well over time. The volume/tumble time experiment is simple because I don't have to do anything really special to the brass since +/- a few thousandths of an inch is not going to change a "1/2 full" case significantly. For chrono data, it will matter for consistency.
 
Although I think the experiment is nonsensical, I'll check back and give your data a once-over. ;) And I'd bet that, in shear numbers, most handgun brass isn't lubed.
 
Although I think the experiment is nonsensical, I'll check back and give your data a once-over.
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Why? What would make you a believer in the experiment? All that is happening is powder moving across itself in a confined space. Rifle loads are usually more full than pistol thus allowing less powder to move. Is there something else happening?

And I'd bet that, in shear numbers, most handgun brass isn't lubed.
Click to expand...

That is really hard to say. It would depend on the big private reloaders. Like Fitz said, he tumbled and so did his mentor when they loaded. Commercial reloaders also do.

Plus if the experiment applies to rifle then basically all rifle reoaders lube.
 
I tumble the ammo, the mags, and the pistol together in a 50/50 mix of walnut/corncob, with a touch of NuFinish. That way it all comes out nice n' shiny. Usually the first few rounds get rid of any leftover cob from the chamber & barrel. Smoke has a nice nutty smell too.
 
I'll tell you what, we can put this to rest right here on this board. I'll put together a 40S&W load with whatever powder you choose. Each case will be sized, trimmed, and reamed to ensure uniformity. I'll load 50 rounds up of it and place 1/2 in a tumbler for a week. In addition, I'll tumble 25 factory loaded WWB rounds along with them for a baseline. I'll disassemble 5 of them, photograph the powders, clock the remainder, and then post the results here. I'll even break it into splits by the day if you want and we can track the "degradation" trend that you say we'll observe.
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Been done numerous times over many years. No detectable difference in appearance, chronograph numbers or accuracy.
 
:D :D :D The OP asks a question back in 2005 and says thanks for the replies almost 5 years later :D :D :D


Priceless :evil:
 
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