How do you feel about frangible defensive ammuntion?

[Sam1911]

We've been discussing that stuff for a long time now:

We've had a few threads on it:

Is anyone really dumb enough to fall for this

Gun ideas that seem good on paper, but nobody really likes once they come out...

DRT Ammunition

9mm DRT Ammunition

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=619649
http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=12518766

 

[Nom de Forum]

My unscientific opinion formed over decades of following "X Premium Non-Frangible Bullet" versus "Y Premium Non-Frangible Bullet" versus "Z Expensive Frangible Bullet" commentaries on various artificial testing scenarios:

Premium Non-Frangible Bullets work very well 80% of the time and well 19% of the time and 1% of the time not very well in the real World .

Expensive Frangible Bullets work spectacularly well 50% of the time and not very well 25% of the time and ineffectively 25% of the time in the real World.

It is best to stick to Premium Non-Frangible Bullets for more predictable and reliable results in the real World.

YMMV

 

[PabloJ]

I have zero interest in expensive dum-dum bullets. There is nothing new, revolutionary nor worthwhile about them except perhaps making more noise pollution due to higher velocity of modern light weight ones.

 

[stressed]

wait,did they really claim all that in the older thread?

 

[1911 guy]

Think about what type of injuries shut down the human body. Now think about what type of injuries are inflicted by frangible ammunition. I carry 230gr HydraShocks.

 

[j1]

I do not think that any bullets will be matched to the gun which shot them or there will be any testmony against the shooter either.

 

[jbrown50]

I know the whole fbi standard 1 is 12 inches. However I'm not in the fbi. This round has been tested in live game with fantastic results ( just YouTube drt live game)
I have no need for alot of Penetration in a defense round. As long as I know I can get to the vitals (which I have no concerns whatsoever with this round.)
Also when I shot this ammo today, it had a MUCH lighter recoil than anything else I was shooting.

You don't have to be in the FBI to meet up with the same criminals that the FBI meets up with. Most of the violent criminals the FBI goes after have already killed, injured or attacked regular old citizens. Those criminal's clothing, skin, bone, sternum, muscle and fat don't somehow get thinker and tougher when they meet up with the FBI.

The only differences between regular citizen and LEO armed encounters is that LEOs have a responsibility to chase and track down criminals and they are also more likely to have to shoot through automobiles and other hard barriers. The ammo that they choose generally has to perform well through hard barriers but the FBI 12 inch minimum is there for human target penetration, not necessarily through barriers.

 

[gbeecher]

Gimmicks

I've always thought they were a stupid idea and someone's idea of getting rich quickly. What is a bullet supposed to do? - penetrate objects (people) and cause damage!

 

[MICHAEL T]

I will keep my DPX . The copper bullet works fime

 

[geekWithA.45]

In pistol calibers, "frangible" is a safety feature, not a wounding mechanism.

 

[CWL]

I have zero interest in expensive dum-dum bullets. There is nothing new, revolutionary nor worthwhile about them except perhaps making more noise pollution due to higher velocity of modern light weight ones.

"dum dums" are not considered frangible bullets.

"dum dum" bullets were the original expanding bullets. Experience from cutting an "X" into the top of lead bullets at the Dum Dum arsenal in India to make them expand inside targets led to modern-design JHPs.

 

[Nom de Forum]

In pistol calibers, "frangible" is a safety feature, not a wounding mechanism.

In this thread I believe "Frangible" is being used broadly to describe bullets that are also known as "Pre-fragmented". Most "pre-fragmented" ammunition is marketed touting incapacitating wound capability in addition to reduced chance of ricochet and over-penetration.

 

[geekWithA.45]

is marketed touting incapacitating wound capability

Does this market touting include photos of ninja suited "operators" wearing earmuffs over their balaclavas?

When I looked into this stuff a bunch of years back, the general tradeoff was that it either failed to fragment, resulting in a stab like wound profile indistinguishable from hardball, or it did fragment, resulting in a slightly broader but more shallow profile, the additional stopping power of which is probably best described as "arguable".

 

[IBEWBULL]

158 gr LSWCHP

Like posted before.
The Frag ammo is very specialized.
Since we would never know what the would be how can we be ready ahead of time?

I will stick to my 158 gr LSWCHP in my snub. After all it has been proven over a long time.

I did use a Glasier Blue .38 on a ground hog in my garden a long time ago.
It did not pass through. Also didn't kill it very quickly, a second shot was used.
I won't be carrying them again.

So all in all in the end. Think about what the future may bring.
We will be wrong most times.
I think Melvin Purvis packed a pair of 19old bod11s a .38 super for penetration and a .45 ACP for "knock down" which is a figure of speech only.
At that time the super would defeat the body armor and car doors of the day. LSWCHP and a 66 loaded with 158 Gr JHP. It give instant choice and I like options.
Choose wisely.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Does this market touting include photos of ninja suited "operators" wearing earmuffs over their balaclavas?

When I looked into this stuff a bunch of years back, the general tradeoff was that it either failed to fragment, resulting in a stab like wound profile indistinguishable from hardball, or it did fragment, resulting in a slightly broader but more shallow profile, the additional stopping power of which is probably best described as "arguable".

Ninjas in balaclavas? Perhaps in some advertisements I have'nt seen. I am really only familiar with the early examples Glaser and MagSafe. When Joe owned MagSafe I don't recall seeing him in any of his videos wearing black pajamas, however he did hotrod around on a Hog. R.I.P. Joe.

 

[Sam1911]

I think he's referring to the advertising for "EXTREME SHOCK" ammo:

As sold by the ninja monks of the temple of the exploding pants.

 

[Nom de Forum]

That's funny! ^^^^^^^

 

[Sam1911]

Real stuff...believe it or not.

 

[mavracer]

IF and notice that's a big if they penatrate to vitals they work very good, but if they don't they tend to fail miserably.
So they'd be great if all the BGs in the world were skinny wearing nothing more than light clothing and would promise to face you squarely and not put their arms in front of them.
Unfortunatly you don't get to pick what BG decides you are his target and if you draw the 6' 350# guy in the heavy leather coat and have to shoot through one of those big meaty forarms to get to vitals bullets that break up start to not sound appealing.

 

[Pizzapinochle]

I think he's referring to the advertising for "EXTREME SHOCK" ammo:

As sold by the ninja monks of the temple of the exploding pants.

I hope that ammo included an on-board taser in each round that zapped people into submission along with shooting them.

 

[Nom de Forum]

......Unfortunatly you don't get to pick what BG decides you are his target and if you draw the 6' 350# guy in the heavy leather coat and have to shoot through one of those big meaty forarms to get to vitals bullets that break up start to not sound appealing.

IIRC that was about the size of the guy in an infamous incident were a highway patrolman unloaded a .357Mag full of 125gr HP and did not stop the attack. I think this took place in the Carolinas and the patrolman was killed. Help me out here guys, anyone remember all the details? It was a perfect example of ineffectiveness due to inadequate penetration of a caliber/bullet combination well known for usually being effective.

 

[statelineblues]

When I was a firearms instructor for an armored carrier service back in the late '90s and early 2Ks I recommended carrying Federal Premium 124gr Expandable FMJ. The company was based in New Jersey so we weren't allowed to carry hollow point ammo (law enforcement only). I read the ballistics and thought it would be the best alternative to JHP ammo. Unfortunately it was rather expensive and the company would only pay for regular 115gr FMJ ammo.

 

[Pizzapinochle]

It seems like the frangible stuff has some situations it would be effective when others might not (near miss on vitals turns to damage to vitals because of "shards"), but there are more situaitoins where HP or FMJ will be more effective. Pick the stuff that works most of the time, spend your $$$ on more ammo to practice with.