How effective have Shotguns proven to be in combat?
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PT92
Member
Your rather lengthy and astute post speaks to the reason I have always been fond of the SG for HD and general civilian needs. For rifles, I stick with carbines in 9 and 45 only becuase I have corresponding pistols in the same caliber.
I have never purchased an AR or AK (unless you count my Saiga 12 as an AK) not only becuase they are quite expensive, but mainly becuase of many of the reasons laid out in your post. That is not to say I'm averse to them, I shoot my buddy's AR all the time and love its compactness/reliability, but I don't have the money to invest in yet another caliber weapon when I have my SG's, carbines and pistols which suit me just fine.
If, however, as you suggest I were a soldier, I would much rather have the AR.
-Cheers
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
However, their use was really quite limited to only a few troops and worked best in basically very short range situations.
lemaymiami
Member
My issue weapon in Vietnam was a 4" S&W revolver (don't ask). I was able to obtain a short shotgun for the jeep and considered it very effective for its purpose (keeping unwanted folks out of the jeep) up near Hue. Out of the jeep it was a standard M16... I was just a pencil pusher and not a combat soldier back then.
Fast forward three years and I was in police work in south Florida again with a 38 model 10.... Every patrol vehicle was equipped with a shotgun and I came to rely on it in any possible shooting situation. Although I was very comfortable with it I can't say I was particularly skilled - that came a few years later. Even when we were allowed to carry semi auto pistols, I still relied on the shotgun (I always figured a pistol was what you used when you didn't have something better at hand).
On the street nothing beats a shotgun for CQB in my opinion - but that's strictly for police work. I told my officers on more than one occasion that if they encountered military grade weapons or automatic weapons (lots of improvised full auto stuff in my era - things like TEC 9's, converted semi-auto MACs... ) they were to go to cover and disengage if possible. A properly trained shotgunner is very effective at ranges under 50 yards (and possibly over..). Once you also learn skip shooting and other nasty maneuvers you're tough to beat. The police shotgun needs a sling in my opinion to allow you to engage when the weapon isn't needed (and climb fences or do other things requiring both hands). The alternative is to clear your weapon (unload it as quick as you can shuck them) and ground it if you need to jump in...
I also advocate a separate bandolier type setup for additional rounds instead of carrying extra weight on the gun itself (bandoliers need to be closed to protect the rounds since they're going to be in and out of the vehicle constantly). Shotgun ammo will degrade fairly quickly if abused...
We routinely backed up every K9 officer with a 'gunner when searching for possibly armed individuals. That sort of two man team with the shotgun covering the lead officer is very effective when any combat will come at close range and all too sudden... Many of our armed encounters were in or around vehicles. The sheer intimidation factor of a confident 'gunner up close ended a lot of gunfights before they got started (which is what good police work is all about in my opinion.).
As someone's already said... a shotgun for combat? it all depends on the type of combat....
Fast forward three years and I was in police work in south Florida again with a 38 model 10.... Every patrol vehicle was equipped with a shotgun and I came to rely on it in any possible shooting situation. Although I was very comfortable with it I can't say I was particularly skilled - that came a few years later. Even when we were allowed to carry semi auto pistols, I still relied on the shotgun (I always figured a pistol was what you used when you didn't have something better at hand).
On the street nothing beats a shotgun for CQB in my opinion - but that's strictly for police work. I told my officers on more than one occasion that if they encountered military grade weapons or automatic weapons (lots of improvised full auto stuff in my era - things like TEC 9's, converted semi-auto MACs... ) they were to go to cover and disengage if possible. A properly trained shotgunner is very effective at ranges under 50 yards (and possibly over..). Once you also learn skip shooting and other nasty maneuvers you're tough to beat. The police shotgun needs a sling in my opinion to allow you to engage when the weapon isn't needed (and climb fences or do other things requiring both hands). The alternative is to clear your weapon (unload it as quick as you can shuck them) and ground it if you need to jump in...
I also advocate a separate bandolier type setup for additional rounds instead of carrying extra weight on the gun itself (bandoliers need to be closed to protect the rounds since they're going to be in and out of the vehicle constantly). Shotgun ammo will degrade fairly quickly if abused...
We routinely backed up every K9 officer with a 'gunner when searching for possibly armed individuals. That sort of two man team with the shotgun covering the lead officer is very effective when any combat will come at close range and all too sudden... Many of our armed encounters were in or around vehicles. The sheer intimidation factor of a confident 'gunner up close ended a lot of gunfights before they got started (which is what good police work is all about in my opinion.).
As someone's already said... a shotgun for combat? it all depends on the type of combat....
PT92
Member
I love this thread!
-Cheers
-Cheers
Excellent post by lemaymiami!
I have been working nightshift police patrol for 27+ years in a big southern US city, and regard the shotgun as a premier weapon for that task. I try to have my 870P in my hands anytime I feel deadly violence is likely. My PD mandates that patrol rifles be cased, in the trunk, except for specified threat situations, whereas shotguns can be kept up front with us, and deployed at our discretion. I take my shotgun for "walks" quite frequently. As lemaymiami indicated, a resolute shotgunner can usually resolve problems with no shots being fired.
I have never had to actually fire a shotgun on the street, largely due to the intimidation factor. When my colleagues, or local citizens, have hit a human solidly with a charge of buck, the usual result has been an instant stop, usually followed by death. Such times are rare, but they do happen. (The Joe Horn incident was local; two solid 00 buck hits, two instant stops, two deaths.)
I have never been in the military, but cannot see preferring a shotgun in Iraq or
Afghanistan, where engagement distances can be long or short, in an instant. Moreover,
shotgun ammo is VERY bulky in quantity. The bulk is more bothersome than the weight,
IMHO, though both are problems.
I have been working nightshift police patrol for 27+ years in a big southern US city, and regard the shotgun as a premier weapon for that task. I try to have my 870P in my hands anytime I feel deadly violence is likely. My PD mandates that patrol rifles be cased, in the trunk, except for specified threat situations, whereas shotguns can be kept up front with us, and deployed at our discretion. I take my shotgun for "walks" quite frequently. As lemaymiami indicated, a resolute shotgunner can usually resolve problems with no shots being fired.
I have never had to actually fire a shotgun on the street, largely due to the intimidation factor. When my colleagues, or local citizens, have hit a human solidly with a charge of buck, the usual result has been an instant stop, usually followed by death. Such times are rare, but they do happen. (The Joe Horn incident was local; two solid 00 buck hits, two instant stops, two deaths.)
I have never been in the military, but cannot see preferring a shotgun in Iraq or
Afghanistan, where engagement distances can be long or short, in an instant. Moreover,
shotgun ammo is VERY bulky in quantity. The bulk is more bothersome than the weight,
IMHO, though both are problems.
lemaymiami
Member
Thanks for the reinforcement. In 22 years I only fired one shot - and didn't miss (and was in and out of court over it for half a year....)
. I'm fairly certain that the shotgun actually prevented many shooting scrapes since the offender just didn't think he'd win... Can't remember how many times someone ignored or refused to obey orders at gunpoint when it was a pistol pointed at them. No one that I ever met ignored the popper, or if they did it was a very bad mistake... Nowadays many police departments have quit training or equipping their officers with shotguns. That's not the way I'd go at all, but I'm not involved in that line of work any more.
. I'm fairly certain that the shotgun actually prevented many shooting scrapes since the offender just didn't think he'd win... Can't remember how many times someone ignored or refused to obey orders at gunpoint when it was a pistol pointed at them. No one that I ever met ignored the popper, or if they did it was a very bad mistake... Nowadays many police departments have quit training or equipping their officers with shotguns. That's not the way I'd go at all, but I'm not involved in that line of work any more.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I'd suggest anyone with a genuine interest in the topic obtain a copy of Swearengen's The World's Fighting Shotguns. See http://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Fighting-Shotguns-IV/dp/B001O8Z9HQ . It's an excellent resource, though somewhat dated at this point (published 1978).
Also:
http://www.amazon.com/Collectors-United-States-Combat-Shotguns/dp/0917218531
A Collector's Guide to United States Combat Shotguns
http://www.amazon.com/Canfields-Complete-United-Military-Shotguns/dp/1931464286/ref=pd_sim_b_3
Bruce N. Canfield's Complete Guide to United States Military Combat Shotguns
http://www.amazon.com/Winchester-Tr...collectors/dp/1882391020/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b
US Winchester Trench and Riot Guns and other US Combat Shotguns
On the web, there's:
http://www.jcs-group.com/military/plymouth/fearsome.html
A Fearsome Arm
http://www.olive-drab.com/archive/JSCS_DA-PAM_27-50-299_16.txt
Joint Service Combat Shotgun Program
W. Hays Parks
Used to be a lot more useful stuff out there, seems a bunch is gone now.
lpl
Also:
http://www.amazon.com/Collectors-United-States-Combat-Shotguns/dp/0917218531
A Collector's Guide to United States Combat Shotguns
http://www.amazon.com/Canfields-Complete-United-Military-Shotguns/dp/1931464286/ref=pd_sim_b_3
Bruce N. Canfield's Complete Guide to United States Military Combat Shotguns
http://www.amazon.com/Winchester-Tr...collectors/dp/1882391020/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b
US Winchester Trench and Riot Guns and other US Combat Shotguns
On the web, there's:
http://www.jcs-group.com/military/plymouth/fearsome.html
A Fearsome Arm
http://www.olive-drab.com/archive/JSCS_DA-PAM_27-50-299_16.txt
Joint Service Combat Shotgun Program
W. Hays Parks
Used to be a lot more useful stuff out there, seems a bunch is gone now.
lpl
Old krow
Member
I have seen them used in shipboard stuff before. The ops generally had a limited scope in nature and the distances were short. The "packing it around" was done via RHIB so it wasn't a huge deal. Haven't seen many used personally for much other than that. IMO, when you need one they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. However, if the situation doesn't call for one the benefits suffer diminishing returns.
Axel Larson
Member
They are not nearly as versatile as a rifle is. Most people choose them for HD because they have low penetration, meaning it won't go through walls and anything else. But in warfare rifles seem to be preferred because they can handle the longer ranges.
Inebriated
Member
Too specialized for military combat, but anything for police or HD, it's probably the best.
5.7Man
Member
I to have read of WWI german complaints about shotguns somwhere as well, I recall that the complaint was that the Buckshot ammo was not a FMJ and thus inhumane
I could not tell you where I read this story, probabaly a Gun magazine. I also recall that the way they used the shotgun was to start firing at the massed infantry at around 100 yds. I have no idea if this is valid or not!
I was a Security Policeman in the AF and we had a couple of shotguns in the armory but we never used them. 870's with bayonet lugs and extended mags. I think there were a couple of guys that qualified with them but that was the only time they left the armory.
I would think that in jungle or forest type fighting a shotgun would be handy, not sure I would give up a rifle for one though and I would not want to carry any extra!
Americans have always loved the shotgun going back to smoothbore muskets, our standard load was Buck and Ball.
I could not tell you where I read this story, probabaly a Gun magazine. I also recall that the way they used the shotgun was to start firing at the massed infantry at around 100 yds. I have no idea if this is valid or not! I was a Security Policeman in the AF and we had a couple of shotguns in the armory but we never used them. 870's with bayonet lugs and extended mags. I think there were a couple of guys that qualified with them but that was the only time they left the armory.
I would think that in jungle or forest type fighting a shotgun would be handy, not sure I would give up a rifle for one though and I would not want to carry any extra!
Americans have always loved the shotgun going back to smoothbore muskets, our standard load was Buck and Ball.
rbernie
Contributing Member
One facet commonly overlooked is how fragile shotgun ammo is relative to brass-cased ammo.
Shotgun ammo is not waterproof unless specifically treated at the mouth to be water resistent, and the waterproofing coatings themselves are relatively fragile. Shot shells are also easily deformed compared to other forms of ammo, leading to a host of chambering issues.
Shotgun ammo is not waterproof unless specifically treated at the mouth to be water resistent, and the waterproofing coatings themselves are relatively fragile. Shot shells are also easily deformed compared to other forms of ammo, leading to a host of chambering issues.
Mike1234567
member
I don't know if this belongs here but...
I work at a Federal facility with armed guards at every gate. A little over a year ago all the guards carried a Glock (probably .40) and a Mossberg 590. Then the positions were outsourced to a contracting company and, soon after, the guards no longer carried the shotguns. I asked a couple of them how they felt about that and they said they were glad to be rid of them because the pistol is so much easier to carry and the shotguns were completely unnecessary.
My thought is, if something happens at one or more of those gates, they're going to wish they still had the 590's.
I work at a Federal facility with armed guards at every gate. A little over a year ago all the guards carried a Glock (probably .40) and a Mossberg 590. Then the positions were outsourced to a contracting company and, soon after, the guards no longer carried the shotguns. I asked a couple of them how they felt about that and they said they were glad to be rid of them because the pistol is so much easier to carry and the shotguns were completely unnecessary.
My thought is, if something happens at one or more of those gates, they're going to wish they still had the 590's.
straightshooter9
Member
Mike, I think that's a result of switching from "Professionals" to a contracting company cutting back on the "expense" of maintaing and training with shotguns and laziness for not carrying a shotgun. 
Personally, I agree with you......I think the SHOTGUN is PERFECT for an entrance/exit gate where the BG would be funneled like a rat!
As somebody mentioned, just the "visual" of a shotgun is VERY intimidating!
Personally, I agree with you......I think the SHOTGUN is PERFECT for an entrance/exit gate where the BG would be funneled like a rat!
As somebody mentioned, just the "visual" of a shotgun is VERY intimidating!
PT92
Member
PT92
Member
A Federal Facility would certainly warrant the need for either a tactical shotgun or carbine, in particular, in this current environment. Kind of stupid to rely solely on pistols IMHO at any important facility.
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NRA Life Member
Inebriated
Member
Mike1234567 said:
I would much rather carry a shotgun and go home every night with tired arms, than not go home that one night with rested arms.
PT92 - How do you quote with the link to the post? I am often to lazy to even quote at all, but still.
PT92
Member
When you click on the quick reply, click on Go Advanced and then you will see a Quote icon--Click on that and you will get QUOTE][/QUOTE. You will have to copy and paste what ever you want to quote between the two QUOTE statements. Really no easy way to do this compared to some other forums (not bashing, just stating a fact).
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NRA Life Member
Mike1234567
member
Yeah, me too. And I'd really feel better knowing I'm equipped to properly fend off an attack on others too. They didn't carry with their arms so it's not a matter of muscle fatigue. After all, they need their hands free to check ID's and operate radios, etc. The 590's were on slings tossed over their shoulders. Yeah, I know that can make one's shoulder a bit sore but still...
At any rate, if the guards needed to fend off an attack, IMHO, they'd be FAR better off if they still carried 590's because that's a close-combat situation and I don't think there's a much better option than a good shotgun for that when combined with a good .40 S&W.
Inebriated
Member
PT92 said:
I mean how do you get the link to the post next to the person's name?
[QUOTE="Mike1234567]Yeah, me too. And I'd really feel better knowing I'm equipped to properly fend off an attack on others too. They didn't carry with their arms so it's not a matter of muscle fatigue. After all, they need their hands free to check ID's and operate radios, etc. The 590's were on slings tossed over their shoulders. Yeah, I know that can make one's shoulder a bit sore but still...
At any rate, if the guards needed to fend off an attack, IMHO, they'd be FAR better off if they still carried 590's because that's a close-combat situation and I don't think there's a much better option than a good shotgun for that when combined with a good .40 S&W.[/QUote]
Exactly.
PT92
Member
I see--I believe the link only appears if a certain number of characters are being quoted--If it exceeds the limit, it reduces the post and provides a link to see it in its entirety (at least that is the way I see it). It's not something you can manually do.
Test this by replying to a lengthy post I and I think you will see this result.
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NRA Life Member
Inebriated
Member
PT92 said:
Did not work for me. Alright, back on track lol.
My understand was WW1 issue shotgun ammo was all brass with a sealed end, thats because despite the best laid plains of mice and men paper shells are too easily deformed/get wet and might fail to feed or go off. Plastic shells didn't exist back then. The US issued that all brass stuff well into the Vietnam era.
Modern military buckshot I'd seen is high brass and plastic with sealed primers.
Shotgun ammo is heavy and bulky to haul around compared to a modern select fire intermediate caliber rifle. The shotgun certainly has advantages in urban and jungle settings, but its limited range plus the weight of its ammo regulates it to a specialist's weapon.
Modern military buckshot I'd seen is high brass and plastic with sealed primers.
Shotgun ammo is heavy and bulky to haul around compared to a modern select fire intermediate caliber rifle. The shotgun certainly has advantages in urban and jungle settings, but its limited range plus the weight of its ammo regulates it to a specialist's weapon.
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