How Effective Was The MP 44 Assault Rifle?
- Thread starter Timthinker
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Metapotent
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Yes pretty sure, however the lands of the rifling in the barrel for a 7.92 Kurz may be .323 which might be the source of the confusion. There are a few different ways to determine 'caliber'. Then there is also the confusion involved with the nomenclature. For example a .223 is actually .224 and a .30 carbine is technically .308. The 7.92 is also called 8mm, however 7.92mm in inches is .311 but 8mm is .314
RON in PA
Member
While the AK-47 and the MP-44 have a similar appearence, their innards are totally different. The AK-47 operates very much like a Garand while the Sturmgewehr has a unique action similar in ways to a SKS.
During the Cold War the East Germans sent Stg 44s to places in Africa along with 7.92 Kurtz ammo.
During the Cold War the East Germans sent Stg 44s to places in Africa along with 7.92 Kurtz ammo.
Drue
Member
Archie,
I was thinking of the Russian Federov. During WWI, the Russians developed a selective fire rifle that was shorter and lighter than their M91 Mosin and fired the 6.5 Arisaka round. A few were made and tested but nothing much became of the project. The 6.5 is more powerful than what we think of today as intermediate rifle power rounds but less so than the full powered 7.62x54 that the Russians were using. Since the Federov was an attempt to create a selective fire rifle that was more controlable in FA, many feel that it was the first assault rifle.
Drue
I was thinking of the Russian Federov. During WWI, the Russians developed a selective fire rifle that was shorter and lighter than their M91 Mosin and fired the 6.5 Arisaka round. A few were made and tested but nothing much became of the project. The 6.5 is more powerful than what we think of today as intermediate rifle power rounds but less so than the full powered 7.62x54 that the Russians were using. Since the Federov was an attempt to create a selective fire rifle that was more controlable in FA, many feel that it was the first assault rifle.
Drue
max popenker
Member
on assault rifles in general
you might be surprised, but one of the earliest mass produced (about 50.000 made) assault rifles was the... Browning BAR 1918.
As is, it was an one-man weapon, which was to be fired from the hip ro the shoulder, in semi-auto from the trenches, and in full-auto during advances (assaults
) on enemy trenches, to keep opponents down by the sheer volume of fire.
By modern standards the BAR is way too heavy, too powerful and too inaccurate in full auto fire, but the concept was there!
the Fedorov avtomat was issued to Russian troops since 1916, but it was made in smaller numbers (about 3.000 made), and fired somewhat less powerful (in WW1 terms) 6.5mm Arisaka round.
Speaking on Stg.44, the Stg is a pure propaganda name (Assault rifle), while, in my opinion, original 1941-42 designation of Mkb (Mashinenkarabiner, or machine carbine) is a more proper name for entire breed.
AK was not the first Russian assault rifle, but it was first to be adopted... Nor it was the best one, but it is another story, both long and sad one.
you might be surprised, but one of the earliest mass produced (about 50.000 made) assault rifles was the... Browning BAR 1918.
As is, it was an one-man weapon, which was to be fired from the hip ro the shoulder, in semi-auto from the trenches, and in full-auto during advances (assaults
) on enemy trenches, to keep opponents down by the sheer volume of fire.By modern standards the BAR is way too heavy, too powerful and too inaccurate in full auto fire, but the concept was there!
the Fedorov avtomat was issued to Russian troops since 1916, but it was made in smaller numbers (about 3.000 made), and fired somewhat less powerful (in WW1 terms) 6.5mm Arisaka round.
Speaking on Stg.44, the Stg is a pure propaganda name (Assault rifle), while, in my opinion, original 1941-42 designation of Mkb (Mashinenkarabiner, or machine carbine) is a more proper name for entire breed.
AK was not the first Russian assault rifle, but it was first to be adopted... Nor it was the best one, but it is another story, both long and sad one.
Carl N. Brown
Member
For what it's worth. Albert Speer referred to the Stg44 as a
"submachinegun" to distinguish it from the pistol-caliber MP38
and MP40 "machinepistols".
Of course, in US terminology the German MP "Machinepistols"
were submachineguns: pistol-caliber machineguns.
"submachinegun" to distinguish it from the pistol-caliber MP38
and MP40 "machinepistols".
Of course, in US terminology the German MP "Machinepistols"
were submachineguns: pistol-caliber machineguns.
Timthinker
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Wow! I expected that my inquiry might generate some interesting replies, but I never expected such a wealth of detailed discussions. This is certainly the place for information and advice about firearms. Thanks for the postings so far.
Timthinker
Timthinker
American By Blood
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Ron in PA is dead on about the lineage of the AK.
Aesthetically, Kalashnikov took more than a few cues from the StG44. However, he has said in at least one interview that when designing the action of the AK he essentially just tweaked the works of a Garand and threw in a Browning auto-sear.
Can't fault the man for good taste.
Aesthetically, Kalashnikov took more than a few cues from the StG44. However, he has said in at least one interview that when designing the action of the AK he essentially just tweaked the works of a Garand and threw in a Browning auto-sear.
Can't fault the man for good taste.
SoCalShooter
Member
mp-44 was an effective weapon especially in a street fight, problem was that it was a stamped weapon and that had its problem had the germans not been stamping the recievers and had them earlier in the war they would have had an excellent weapon.
SDC
Member
It was effective enough that (once they'd figured out how good the concept was), they couldn't keep up with the demand for them. Here are a couple of pictures that have been posted here before:
jjohnson
Member
A Couple More Points
Just to touch on a couple of things..... back to the original question about effectiveness.
The German Army was basically set up to use machineguns (MG34, later MG42) in 'fire and manuver' tactics supported by rifles (or the other way around, if you prefer). As the war dragged on, and the Germans were faced with hordes of Russians, they needed the riflemen to have more firepower at longer ranges than the SMGs could provide. The StG44 did that, and did it fairly well.
The lethality of the cartridge certainly up to 8mm Mauser of course, but then, the 7.62 x 39 in an AK isn't up to 7.62 x 54r standards, either. Apples and oranges - bottom line is that for what it was designed to do, it did well.
Just to touch on a couple of things..... back to the original question about effectiveness.The German Army was basically set up to use machineguns (MG34, later MG42) in 'fire and manuver' tactics supported by rifles (or the other way around, if you prefer). As the war dragged on, and the Germans were faced with hordes of Russians, they needed the riflemen to have more firepower at longer ranges than the SMGs could provide. The StG44 did that, and did it fairly well.
The lethality of the cartridge certainly up to 8mm Mauser of course, but then, the 7.62 x 39 in an AK isn't up to 7.62 x 54r standards, either. Apples and oranges - bottom line is that for what it was designed to do, it did well.
Limeyfellow
Member
THe Stg44 also served with Czech paratroopers for a long time.
I do find it amusing that you would describe a rifle that weighs 19ibs as an assault rifle. Thats like passing of a Bren gun as one or a FN Minimi also an assault rifle when they are all squad support weapons.
I do find it amusing that you would describe a rifle that weighs 19ibs as an assault rifle. Thats like passing of a Bren gun as one or a FN Minimi also an assault rifle when they are all squad support weapons.
max popenker
Member
roscoe, do you know that Remington mdl 8 is just another creation of the holy John Moses Browning?
Limeyfellow, i'm not certain about Czechoslovak paratroopers, but Yugoslav paratroopers used Stg.44 up until late 1970s
Limeyfellow, i'm not certain about Czechoslovak paratroopers, but Yugoslav paratroopers used Stg.44 up until late 1970s
Weight is not the only available criteria. The original tactical niche for BAR was just that - an assault rifle.
Metapotent
Member
The BAR was not an assault rifle. It fired a full-power cartridge (.30-06), not an intermediate cartridge. And it was designed to put down small scale supressive fire for squads, meaning it wasn't a battle rifle either.
It wasn't used as a riflemans weapon, meaning it wasn't really meant to be used to pick off individual targets like an assault rifle. It was also heavier than a battle rifle and an assault rifle combined meaning it wouldn't be practical to have soldiers use it as such.
The bottomline is that the BAR was a clip-fed light machine gun that can only really be considered an "assault rifle" by someone who is in desperate need of doing some research.
Tony Williams
Member
The definition of an "assault rifle" is an argument that can go on for ever, because there is no agreement on it.
Very few military rifles have actually been officially named "assault rifle"; and the AK isn't one of them. Ironically, one of the few which has, was the Swiss Stgw.57 ("Sturmgewehr" being equivalent to "assault rifle") and that one happened to be chambered for the full-power 7.5x55 Swiss round!
The BAR doesn't really fit into any category. It was designed for "walking fire" and not initially fitted with a bipod; it certainly wasn't envisaged as a light machine gun, in the sense of a supporting-fire gun, it was intended to be a one-man personal weapon. However, it was too heavy for the role so got converted into an LMG. On paper, it wasn't a very good LMG (fixed barrel, small magazine under the body) but its users liked it, which is the main thing.
These days the distinction has become a bit pointless. Is the FN SCAR Light in 5.56mm an assault rifle, but not the heavy version in 7.62x51? Is the HK 416 an assault rifle but not the HK 417?
Those of you interested in a brief history of the assault rifle and its ammo might like to read THIS. Here's a pic from it, showing those "intermediate" rounds which have entered service:
Intermediate service cartridges: 6.5mm Arisaka, 7mm Medium, .30 M1 Carbine, 7.92mm Kurz, 7.62mm AK-47, 7.62x45 Czech, 9x39 Russian (silenced AP - replica round), 5.56x45 SS109, 5.45x39 AK-74, 5.8x42 Chinese
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
Very few military rifles have actually been officially named "assault rifle"; and the AK isn't one of them. Ironically, one of the few which has, was the Swiss Stgw.57 ("Sturmgewehr" being equivalent to "assault rifle") and that one happened to be chambered for the full-power 7.5x55 Swiss round!
The BAR doesn't really fit into any category. It was designed for "walking fire" and not initially fitted with a bipod; it certainly wasn't envisaged as a light machine gun, in the sense of a supporting-fire gun, it was intended to be a one-man personal weapon. However, it was too heavy for the role so got converted into an LMG. On paper, it wasn't a very good LMG (fixed barrel, small magazine under the body) but its users liked it, which is the main thing.
These days the distinction has become a bit pointless. Is the FN SCAR Light in 5.56mm an assault rifle, but not the heavy version in 7.62x51? Is the HK 416 an assault rifle but not the HK 417?
Those of you interested in a brief history of the assault rifle and its ammo might like to read THIS. Here's a pic from it, showing those "intermediate" rounds which have entered service:
Intermediate service cartridges: 6.5mm Arisaka, 7mm Medium, .30 M1 Carbine, 7.92mm Kurz, 7.62mm AK-47, 7.62x45 Czech, 9x39 Russian (silenced AP - replica round), 5.56x45 SS109, 5.45x39 AK-74, 5.8x42 Chinese
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
HorseSoldier
Member
The Austrians did the same thing, calling their FALs "StG-58s" (the AUG's official nomenclature as "StG-77" being a rather more realistic subsequent application of the term).
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