How Far is Too Far?

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If you have the skill for a clean 300 yard kill, then I do not think anyone here would snicker at that shot. I personally do not attempt shots much beyond 200 yards, as I lack the skills to get it done cleanly.

5 years or so ago, I was encouraged by the landowner to take a 350 yd shot & gut-shot a young buck. He dropped at the shot. As I approached him, I was greeted with 18" or so of entrails hanging out of the animal; He was alert, sitting up, unable to stand. Had to finish him with a .38, he just sat there staring at me for that shot. Not a good afternoon. I limit myself to more manageable distances now.
 
Like many have stated before on this thread. I has no problem with a magnum caliber rifle if you can shoot it. I have seen so many morons in Dicks or other sporting good stores. They come in the night before season opens and buy a uber magnum. Then ask the poor sap behind the counter to bore sight it for them, pick up a box of the cheapest shells they can get. They honestly think they are ready to hunt. You need to practice practice practice with a rifle and know how it shoots before you hunt. Shows like the best of the west are fun to watch but not realistic. Those guys shoot tons of ammo and have rifle scope combos that rival a new chevy truck in value.

A couple of my buddies and I took a life sized cardboard cutout of a racecar driver from a beer display. Set the target at a grand and took turns trying to hit it. We all shoot alot and reload and know our rifles. It took me 8 rounds to even hit the target the first time. I was shooting a 7 STW using 139 grain interbonds. If you don't shoot those kinds of ranges it is darn hard to hit anything unless by shear luck.
 
5 years or so ago, I was encouraged by the landowner to take a 350 yd shot & gut-shot a young buck. He dropped at the shot. As I approached him, I was greeted with 18" or so of entrails hanging out of the animal; He was alert, sitting up, unable to stand. Had to finish him with a .38, he just sat there staring at me for that shot. Not a good afternoon. I limit myself to more manageable distances now.
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These situations do not only come from distances you note. They also come from what some would consider inferior calibers for the range even if they are much shorter than is capable with the so called Uber Magnums.
This forum is quite full of posts swearing to the death ray abilities of the various 22 centerfires for deer and 6mm and 25 cal. for elk sized game at ranges that while plenty good for a modern .30 they well may be past the sensible limits of a varmint cartridge.
I do not think this discussion has a winner but givin the bias and half truths about the capabilities on both sides I seem to alway be compelled to respond.
 
A calculated shot at 500 yards by someone that knows his rifle and his talent is fine.But the rub is that some will try that shot in desperation hoping it will hit where it should. I used to hunt with a guy like that and we finally began to leave him behind. We just couldn't take any more of his "Luck Shots."
 
RockinU said:
I haven't been here long, but I seem to notice a decided bias against long shots, and a maybe even bigger one against large magnum calibers.

I sometimes do hunt with a large magnum caliber, and I am not afraid to take shots over 300 yards with it if everything lines up right (I can get a good stable rest, winds cooperate, etc., etc.). Now I don't advocate taking stupid, uneducated shots like those mentioned in the Weatherby thread, but my loads are chronographed, and run through a ballistics program, I know my clicks, I have a range finder, and I shoot plenty enough to know my capabilities.

I don't see why it's such a big deal if someone has put the time and effort in to become proficient, and they have the equipment to make the shot. You can say sneak closer all you want, but that isn't practical in every area. I just don't understand all the bashing of big magnum calibers and long shots...
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Ethical shooting is not about what you can do once, nor about what you can do sometimes, but about what you can do every time. So get a 7" paper plate, mount it on a white background (unless the animals you hunt have convenient black circles over the vital area) and have at it. As long as you can consistently hit (say 19 out of 20) the plate under actual hunting conditions, feel free to shoot that far away. That means no benchrests unless you hunt with one.

For most people the longest distance they can keep them all on the plate will be a LOT shorter than the distances they talk about on the internet.
 
Too Far for a caliber/load, any caliber/load, is where it has lost its accuracy and/or it's energy, as we know some cartridges will carry enough energy at longer ranges to properly penetrate and humanely kill a large game animal while the accuracy of the round is so poor as to make shot placement very difficult, and some cartridges on some large game remain accurate but the penetration would not make a humane kill.

Unethical comes into the discussion (imho) when the individual making the shot does so in a situation where there is a good chance the shot will wound, or kill the animal slowly, instead of a quick humane kill. Do I have this correct?

Now how much of a chance to be inaccurate is needed to be unethical?
I think if the hunter had a 50/50 chance of wounding the animal or killing it humanely, we'd agree that was a bad situation..., but how much better should the odds be in favor of a humane kill for it to be ethical?

My observation out here in the East is that too many "hunters" attempt to make up for bad marksmanship with a heavier caliber, often recommending a magnum caliber while claiming the non-magnums won't do the job. Many folks come into the gunshop where I used to work, as hunting season approaches, and ask for magnum caliber rifles for hunting in areas within a few hours drive, because the guys who invited them said,
Get a .300 winmag or a .338 as a .30-06 or a .270 won't knock 'em down, and avoid a .25-06 or a .30-30. :what:
I think that's where the negativity against the big magnums and long range comes from. It's not the damage, it's not the flinch, it's not the distance, it's the poor shots who pooh-pooh less than a magnum when they need to spend more time at the range, or get the deer in closer and quit (as was mentioned) taking "luck" shots.

So myself, I like to use a flintlock like Mr. Humphrey, and "too far" for my gun is some place beyond 100 yards, as the rifle will reach 100 yards far from a bench a give a good group, but we don't get too many deer on the local range. "Too Far" for myself when hunting..., is beyond 40 yards, and I like the deer at 25 yards for me to get the iron sights on the right spot, and to place my shot.

I will be applying that range and my flintlock tomorrow as a matter of fact. OH and I too thought the last deer last year was a 40-50 yard shot..., but dang if it wasn't 28 yards (paced it several times to be sure). Funny how deer don't come uniform in size like the targets we use to practice, no? :D

LD
 
Here goes the broken record, but it all boils down to individual skill. I'm comfortable to about 250 yds. If I don't have a steady rest, it's about half that. I know some are better than I and can consistently hit targets at much longer ranges. It all boils down to the individual. Also do not take a shot at a distance that you haven't practiced. If it's 500 and you're comfortable, then fine. But we owe it to the animals we're hunting a clean quick kill. I know all of this has been said, but it is important to me and bears repeating. Don't ever just shoot and pray. Usually you are more likely to wound than miss entirely.
 
"...How Far is Too Far?..." It's the distance beyond which you can't hit a 9" pie plate, off hand, with your hunting ammo, every time.
"...vids..." Mean exactly nothing. Especially, Youtube videos.
 
"...How Far is Too Far?..." It's the distance beyond which you can't hit a 9" pie plate, off hand, with your hunting ammo, every time.
"...vids..." Mean exactly nothing. Especially, Youtube videos.
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Is that just your test or your hunting philosophy?
 
Vern he didn't say a field position, he said off hand. I whole hardidly agree with the field position statement and would say the paper plate is a little to large unless you are talking extended range. I.5 MOA would be a nice expectation for a hunting rifle with less being more desirerable. I would say if you can consistantly shoot 1.5 from field positions of your choice with your hunting ammo then have at it to the point you can hold on that plate.
I think any expectation of doing this in the field off hand is not gonna fly.
 
I would say about 100 yards is the limit for off-hand shooting. As I recall, Finn Aagard used to say he could hit a plate off-hand at that range and considered that his limit for off-hand shooting.

Now, I used to compete in High Power, where the off-hand targets are shot at 200 yards, and I can do a bit better. On paper. Against a moving target at a range I can only guess at, I'd be hesitant.
 
.How Far is Too Far?..." It's the distance beyond which you can't hit a 9" pie plate, off hand, with your hunting ammo, every time.
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What caliber for a pie? Of course for cream pie a smaller lighter bullet will suffice but for a full on fruit pie I think that diameter and weight are a huge factor in a clean, safe and ethical kill.
 
I'm not going to read all of this because it sounds like one of these can of worm questions. Some people believe if they can't do it then you can't ether but there is those that can't do it that think they can. I myself don't take a shoot much over 100 yards anymore because the last long shoot I took was 300 yards & I spent 4 hours tracking/stalking it & when I found it it was laying where I shoot from & when I went to gut it it looked at me. If I would have lost a blood trail it would have been gone. I have lost deer that was standing closer but I just decided to put my limit on close range deer. I have started taking only head shoots & over 150 yards seems like a long shoot in the woods for me. If I had a bench it might be different. I even miss at 100 yards sometimes. Shoot in the distance that you are sure of. If that is 500 then stay at 500 & below.
 
Vern you go from "field position" in one post to strictly "off hand" in your next.
Quoting Aagard on his "off hand" abilities and your own really sheds little light on what your original "field position" limits would be.

Kingmt you talk about wounding an animal at 300 when they have a kill area that of a paper plate and then only feeling comfortable with head shots and staying under 150. The killzone for an ethical headshot has to be less than 4" on an average deer which comes out to about he same size as the 300 kill zone only with the chest vitals a 2" miss will still likely do the creature in fairly well but 2" off on the head could shoot off the animals jaw, eyes, sinuses or completely miss.
In the ethics catagory, to me a headshot is very much akin to shooting one up the rear, very bad form.
 
Vern you go from "field position" in one post to strictly "off hand" in your next.
Quoting Aagard on his "off hand" abilities and your own really sheds little light on what your original "field position" limits would be.
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I hadn't read the post (or assimilated it) where the off hand restriction was applied, and assumed the poster was referring merely to shooting from field positions. When corrected, I re-analyzed the scenario to off-hand only.

My "field positions" limits are the ability to hit a pie pan -- from field positions, at unknown or estimated ranges.
 
With a tight sling, prone I have found that the limit to my ability to consistently strike a 6" circle is about 350 yards in light wind conditions. With a bipod I can do it out to about 450 yards in light wind conditions. ON a good day I can make 500 yard shots. Unless the conditions are perfect and I am in top form I would rather not shoot at unwounded game much past 300 yards. I've done it and I've pulled it off several times but the possibility of wounding becomes exponentially greater past 300 yards.
 
I agree with both Vern and H&H on their last 2 posts and espesially took note on H&H's differentiating between wounded and unwounded game. He is capable and has made such shots at greater distance but chooses not to under normal conditions. That is the huge difference from the man that says he has no use for shooting past 2 or 300 yds and never practices and tests himself further then when the big bull offers that one on a thousand shot he has to try to pull off something he has no business trying, same goes for a wounded animal that needs to be put down asap. I'm only saying that some people will put in the time needed and are capable even if they choose not to do it.
 
I am new to THR although I have been reading posts for quite a while. The point here is that you have to know what you can do. I have shot a lot of deer in several different states, close range and far, and have not lost one yet, I have passed on so so shots. The farthest was a measured 300 yards, I had a solid rest and took the shot with my 03, 165 grain BT federal premium. That was a ways back when I was just out of the service (OG fatigue not desert) and had been shooting other targets at longer ranges. I would still take the shot today as I practice with several rifles .223, .243, and of course 30.06, but am now mostly hunting with a wheel gun for the challenge. Range is a limiting factor here too.
 
Sunray said:
"...How Far is Too Far?..." It's the distance beyond which you can't hit a 9" pie plate, off hand, with your hunting ammo, every time.
"...vids..." Mean exactly nothing. Especially, Youtube videos.
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I agree, with the note that the distance you can keep your shots on the plate offhand should be your limit shooting offhand.

I can keep all the shots on the plate at a considerably longer distance if I assume a sitting position and sling up. That's my limit from a sitting position with a sling, etc. There's more than one ethical distance depending on conditions.

Videos show what is possible to do once. As already stated, ethical shooting is about what you can do every time.
 
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X-Rap said:
Vern you go from "field position" in one post to strictly "off hand" in your next.
Quoting Aagard on his "off hand" abilities and your own really sheds little light on what your original "field position" limits would be.

Kingmt you talk about wounding an animal at 300 when they have a kill area that of a paper plate and then only feeling comfortable with head shots and staying under 150. The killzone for an ethical headshot has to be less than 4" on an average deer which comes out to about he same size as the 300 kill zone only with the chest vitals a 2" miss will still likely do the creature in fairly well but 2" off on the head could shoot off the animals jaw, eyes, sinuses or completely miss.
In the ethics catagory, to me a headshot is very much akin to shooting one up the rear, very bad form.
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:banghead:

You should read before judging someone else for what they say. I made a good placement on my 300 yard shoot but it took 4 hours for it to die from the hit. There was frags in lungs heart & liver. I have taken deer at that range before without problem & don't judge anyone else for it. I just said I decided to limit my shoots to a closer range & part of the reason is I started limiting myself to head shots. I said I prefer head shots. I take them because I hate to loose the meat from a body shoot & I don't like to look for them anymore. I take about 6 deer a year for my family unless my wife takes some then we only take 6 together. I can only squeeze 6 in the freezer.

I am very comfortable with my shoots & will not change because someone else doesn't agree. I still stick to the same rule as I stated to the OP. IF YOU CAN & WANT TO THEN DO IT. IF YOU CAN'T THEN DON'T.

To me someone judging someones ethics on a head shot to a rear shot is haveing your head up your rear but that's just my opinion.
 
I'm not going to read all of this because it sounds like one of these can of worm questions. Some people believe if they can't do it then you can't ether but there is those that can't do it that think they can. I myself don't take a shoot much over 100 yards anymore because the last long shoot I took was 300 yards & I spent 4 hours tracking/stalking it & when I found it it was laying where I shoot from & when I went to gut it it looked at me. If I would have lost a blood trail it would have been gone. I have lost deer that was standing closer but I just decided to put my limit on close range deer. I have started taking only head shoots & over 150 yards seems like a long shoot in the woods for me. If I had a bench it might be different. I even miss at 100 yards sometimes. Shoot in the distance that you are sure of. If that is 500 then stay at 500 & below.


You should read before judging someone else for what they say. I made a good placement on my 300 yard shoot but it took 4 hours for it to die from the hit. There was frags in lungs heart & liver. I have taken deer at that range before without problem & don't judge anyone else for it. I just said I decided to limit my shoots to a closer range & part of the reason is I started limiting myself to head shots. I said I prefer head shots. I take them because I hate to loose the meat from a body shoot & I don't like to look for them anymore. I take about 6 deer a year for my family unless my wife takes some then we only take 6 together. I can only squeeze 6 in the freezer.

I am very comfortable with my shoots & will not change because someone else doesn't agree. I still stick to the same rule as I stated to the OP. IF YOU CAN & WANT TO THEN DO IT. IF YOU CAN'T THEN DON'T.

To me someone judging someones ethics on a head shot to a rear shot is haveing your head up your rear but that's just my opinion.
Today 10:52 AM
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I guess after reading again and again I stand by my original post.
What caliber did you shoot that deer with that took 4 hrs to find and still not be dead?
You said you tracked and stalked for 4 hrs and
when I found it it was laying where I shoot from
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I don't understand a word of that so maybe when you say
You should read before judging someone else for what they say.
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you should try to comunicate more coherently.:banghead:


I will never support the notion of a head shot unless you are talking about a headon charge from a large dangerous animal with a very substantial caliber capable of making sever damage in the body if the brain or spine is missed.
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I think part of the answer is, "How far and how often do you practice, from field positions?"

Many a man who only shoots at 100 yards from a bench has an inflated opinion of his skills in the field.
 
IMHO
I'd say most of us know full well what range we can accurately shoot from and hit a vital spot. And if someone doesn't know, they should find out. But the problem arises when a hunter wants the deer, elk, or whatever, so bad that he's not willing to pass on a shot that he knows darn well that he shouldn't take. Once he does that, whether he drops the game or not, it's an unethical shot.
 
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