How fast can you make a shoot/no shoot decision?

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This has many parts. How fast can you recognize a threat. What is your state of mind. I hate it in movies when they have that dramatic pause. Most people don't go through life expecting a violent threat. On the other hand, some of us do. Next, how prepared are you. do you have a weapon, how fast can you access it and get it in action. Have you decided on your course of action, determined if the threat is real. I was taught the quick kill in the Army. Very unlike civilian or peacetime, it assumes you are armed and ready. That any sudden appearance is a threat to be acted on. The result can be a lethal hit before you can process it in your mind. This is no longer taught for the reason it is too dangerous to be in that state of mind. I have killed birds so fast with a shotgun that it was done before I realized it. Since then I had to train myself to correctly identify my target before I shot. Some folks cannot make an instant decision. It takes training.
 
Many thanks to Jeff White for posting this. It most certainly does apply to armed citizens. A security camera could have captured an armed citizen in just such a situation, in which the offender dropped the gun faster than the defender could possibly observe and process this unexpected change of events while he or she was in the act of defensively pulling the trigger.

Just last week I testified for an officer who, in 2016, shot and wounded a suspect in a furtive movement shooting, part of which (the suspect, not the officer) was captured on the patrol car dashcam. Breaking it down to hundredths of a second with a Coach's Eye app, we were able to show the jury how small a fraction of a second the suspect's rising empty hands would have been visible to the officer, whose view of those hands was blocked by his Glock in his own hands. The jury got it, and he was totally acquitted last Friday.

It sounds like hyperbole to say that those who judge have millions of times longer to think about it than the Good Guy With A Gun. I was able to point out to the jury that there are sixty of those seconds in every minute, sixty minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day, 30 days in a month and so forth. The officer's accusers had had about 173 million of those seconds to Monday morning quarterback a cop who was in circumstances which led him to reasonably believe the suspect was trying to draw a gun and shoot him to death.

It is not at all beyond the pale to realize that something very similar could happen to any law-abiding citizen.

Thanks again to Jeff White for the reminder and the lesson.
 
Recently, I posted about the training that I received from my agency at the range on qualification day.

Previously, when I was at the academy a long time ago. I received some virtual and role playing scenario training. It was pretty primitive, but gave you a chance to see how you might behave under pressure or threat.

A couple of years ago, the range I shoot at when I am off duty offered a new feature. A virtual system that played video scenarios. It was disappointing from a learning point of view. It was basically a giant shoot-em-up video game. I learned nothing accept to not do it again.

Previous, we had used the local police college indoor range for qualifying and on occasion, use their virtual system. It was different from the range system. Not as well lit and the videos were clearly of lower resolution. The difference was the stress situation. You walked into a building and there was a man. He looked over and started yelling about being cheated. Then he picked up a brick and stood there. Then he advanced. When do you draw your gun? What do you say up to that point? What do you say after you have drawn your gun. When do you shoot?

My present agency has improved the training by obtaining a 5 screen surround system for virtual training. It has a thousand different scenarios. What do you do when someone is raising their voice to a person at a desk/counter (not police, just in a business office)? What should you do? Should you draw your gun? When? How about a less lethal option? When is your partner in danger?

We also had some simple scenario training. You are returning to the office from eating lunch down the block. Someone comes up to you complaining about all the police shootings or how children are being handled and taken away from their parent. How do you handle this. No expensive equipment is needed. We traded our GLOCKS for training guns (don’t fire ammo, but do go bang and eject cases and cycle the action so you will have to reload at some point. We were also given training tazers.
It was good useful training and cost nearly nothing. At the end of my go at this situation, I had talked the guy down and he wanted to shake hands. The player in this situation was supposed to react to the way you reacted.
Some others got defensive and it escalated. If you can learn from this, it is great training. Not everyone does.
Then we had another scenario with two aggressive players. You had to prevent them from getting an advantage on you like one on either side so they can rush you and jam you up or one gets behind you. They were unarmed, so the threshold level of your reaction was lower than just drawing and shooting.
One guy tazed both attackers. Someone else drew their GLOCK and held them at gunpoint. I used my baton to keep them at bay and move around them to withdraw. Other officers I have worked with say you cannot withdraw. So it is how someone will interpret what they think they should do.

Should you never back down, but stand tough? Should you try to de-escalate a situation? Are you giving a bad image if you do not scream and curse a person down? If this last one sounds bizarre, I remember two veteran officers who said you needed to control a situation and that included out shouting and out cursing the offender.

The important thing to remember for me is to be flexible in your response and think before you just walk into a situation. Many of the scenarios, both role playing and virtual have been about this. They also point out how you may not have any time to think this out and may have to just react with force.


Oh, and a good reason to go to the range and shoot a qualification drill over and over when you go is to reinforce your confidence in your ability to use your weapon and whether you can deploy it when needed.

Jim
 
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Having been in a few for real situations as an on duty/off duty LEO as well as private security—-pretty fast.
Sometimes I may have waited what others might think as too long but, thankfully, it worked out well.
And I never had to fire a shot.
I taught armed guards in NYC for over 20 years and told them we are paid to make sure.
I also put my students through extensive role playing and shoot/don’t shoot videos to prepare them as best I could.
As well as emphasizing the importance of situational awareness.
The situation on this video is a tough call which I am not going to second guess.
Don’t carry illegal guns.
Don’t run from the police.
As my dad taught me decades ago,
“Son—when a cop says Stop! Or Don’t move!——it’s not a suggestion.
 
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This video is of a controversial Chicago Police shooting. Comments about the police and what might have led to the shooting are off topic in this thread. They are not relevant to a private citizen's use of deadly force which is the focus of this subforum. What is relevant is how fast real life situations change. 838 milliseconds elapsed between the subject being armed and the subject ditching his weapon.



The video contains strong language and shows a 13 year old getting shot. Don't watch if those images will bother you.

Legally armed citizens don't wear body cameras, (none that I know of anyway) so if you are unfortunate enough to be involved in a shooting you likely won't have video like this to back up your story.

We have a lot of discussions about decision making. How many of us (not including current and former LE) have had any real training on shoot/no shoot decision making? How many think that they can recognize that it's become a no shoot situation fast enough not to shoot?


Enough studys have been done to prove beyond any reasonable actions = that was a good shoot.

There was no actual reaction time lag for that officer to stop his action of shooting a THREAT !.

Do really illegal,stupid sheet = get shot.
 
Since I have an incurable, chronic, neurologic disease, my so-called "speed of thinking" is impaired.

But, I am well-trained. So even if my reaction time is slow, my ability to acquire and hit a target is only minimally diminished.

Since first-shot hits from a handgun in such a situation are rare if there is any significant distance between the shooters, I think the odds still favor me.
 
I think if you wanted to quantify how fast an individual can make a decision to shoot, you just need a shot timer set for a random delay start. Get on target, finger on the trigger, at the buzzer the shooter can process the audible “start” sound and turn it into an action that is pulling the trigger.

The time to first shot, is your answer.

As for how long it takes to make a correct decision, that’s pretty up in the air. I know some people that have made nothing but bad decisions for years. That said, I imagine they don’t take any longer to make than good decisions.

I still remember a stage at the Fiesta Regional in San Antonio 20 years or so ago. They had an 18 round stage that started with the shooter having to pull a keychain out of a bucket, the color of the keychain was the color of targets that were “no shoots” and the remaining colors were the targets to engage. I still remember the stage because it required 3 different “programmed” shooting sequences, that two were instantly thrown out once my hand cleared the top of the bucket to see the color I had chosen.

It was very clear to viewers who the shooters were that could remember the various sequences vs the ones that “played” back one they had hoped for or were thinking about the sequence as they went. I have often thought about how interesting the shooting solutions were for the various shooters.
 
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Some interesting points in the discussion have been made, but the true statement is: You don't know until you are there. I spent years in the profession of training, evaluated numerous persons/programs to for my officers to experience and found them all lacking in one aspect or another. Even so, I provided the broadest cross section of the offerings I could.

One of the most effective ways to increase situational awareness was the morning entry into the academy training room - if they did not identify what I had in my hand (and whether it was a threat or not) within a second...off to the PT slab we go. Even then, milliseconds determine the outcome.

My answer? I go with JMorris. It is not only how quickly you draw, or how quickly you engage...it is how quickly you can make work through the decision tree to engage or not. This process (more often than not) starts WAY before your hand ever touches the weapon. Recognizing the subtle but always present pre-attack indicators is vital to going home at the end of the shift.
 
My post concerns both the time element (response) and several posters concerning the value of training.
I have been lucky enought to have had a CCW instructor who had a state of the art interactive projection system where you carried a training firearm w/laser. As the scenario plays out you have numerous options (retreat if possible, challenge the perp, draw , draw and fire) The system records your actions and the you, the instructor and the others in the class can review your actions.
In one instance I was 'killed' by a knife when I allowed the perp to get too close for me to react. In another, I simply had my pretend spouse and myself to leave the bar when a fight was imminent.
That kind of training and instruction as to the local laws (and your liabilities) in those cases presses home the seriousness of carrying a firearm.
 
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While this is an old thread, revived the answer to Jeff's question:

How many of us (not including current and former LE) have had any real training on shoot/no shoot decision making? How many think that they can recognize that it's become a no shoot situation fast enough not to shoot?

is well known. Karl Rehn (a nationally know expert and good friend) has presented on this:

https://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-the-one-percent-part-1/

The answer is very few. The training and competition worlds estimate the number of folks who pursue significant handgun usage to just be in the tens of thousands. Lots of high end classes see the same folks cycle through.
 
The vast of majority of replies are based on hindsight bias. That is, you know what happened, and are opinionating on what you would have done, given you know what happened.

What is true, the future is vastly different from the past. Is the clock time on your data processor all that fast to process all the incoming information to make the correct prediction? Mine is not.

By the way, we are not cyborgs accurately recording events in time. It has been shown that the human brain remembers in terms of stories, and arranges memories in terms of a story with a start and finish. The brain rearranges events in a time sequence that best fits the story at hand, and adds material to make a coherent story.

Which reminds me of an automobile accident I saw. It happened so quickly that I really don't remember the exact start or sequence of events. I am sure my memory of what I saw, is not actually what I saw. I would be useless as a witness because I would express that uncertainty.

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with respect to the last post,
Law Enforcement Memory of Stressful Events, Recall Accuracy as a Function of Detail Type:
https://www.forcescience.com/2018/0...recall-accuracy-as-a-function-of-detail-type/


with respect to the original topic,
Police Officer Reaction Time to Start and Stop Shooting: The Influence of Decision-Making and Pattern Recognition
https://www.forcescience.com/2014/0...e-of-decision-making-and-pattern-recognition/

and

New Developments in Understanding the Behavioral Science Factors in the ‘Stop Shooting’ Response
https://www.forcescience.com/2009/1...cience-factors-in-the-stop-shooting-response/
 
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