How important is bullet make?

[marineman]

How important is bullet make when reloading? I see load recipies that might include Nosler bullets or Remington bullets. What is the difference if both are the same kind of bullets (ie: a FMJ Nosler bullet and a FMJ Remington bullet) and the same weight? Also, what difference does bullet type make if two different bullets are of the same weight?

Basically, why can't load data be more generalized? Instead of saying that a load requires a 180gr .308 Remington Core Locht bullet, why can't it simply say that it requires a 180 gr .308 bullet? Thanks.

 

[Shoney]

Combinations of factors can cause great variances in velocity/pressure. Here are a few factors:

Primer: amount of striking force on primer, strength, presence of powdered metal (Aluminum & others), brisance - a measure of the rapidity with which an explosive develops its maximum pressure
Barrel: length; tightness of bore; height of the lands; distance of bullet to lands; temperature of barrel;
Bullet: bearing surface of bullet, alloy of bullet; shape of bullet; diameter;
Brass: new/used elasticity; manufacturer, volume;
Powder: new, aged, old, batch powder was from;
Weather: ambient air temp., barometric pressure, humidity
Elevation: above sea level
Other: I am sure I have not listed all.

Would you care to guestimate the number of possible combinations?????

Bottom line - - - One recipe for all will not work and can be dangerous. Use the books as references, not gospels. Examine the data, select a low starting load, and work up loads slowly, watching for pressure signs. Your weapons max will probably vary from all other listed references. That’s the fun/frustration of reloading.

 

[iiranger]

Welllllll.....

#1). Each gun is a law unto itself. If you want best performance, then you "ask the gun" and listen and test and "work with the variables."
#2). You want the simplicity and uniformity, go with a LEE Loader and the starting loads and be done. In black powder days you dipped whatever powder you could get, filled the case basically except for room for bullet and seated bullet, lead bullet... You don't want to know about "outside lubricated bullets..." Mess. You will be giving up some performance with these old style tools, but you will have the simplicity...
#3). "...one born every minute." You have to ask why Nosler data recommends Nosler bullets? (To SELL Nosler bullets...!). Will another bullet of same weight work with starting loads? Probably. There are slight variations from bullet to bullet within brand. This is why you "work up loads."


Will substituting a 180 grain Remington bullet for a Nosler or Hornady or Speer or ??? in any load blow up the gun? Shouldn't. But same performance as in accuracy? Maybe, Maybe not... So you have "a load" with Nosler and "a load" with the other brand... Same powder, primer and case??? Maybe. Maybe not.

Also the throat of your rifle wears with each shot. No big deal with 25 rounds a decade for deer. Couple thousand for varmint or target per year, adds up. So you work up a load the gun likes with a certain distance to the rifling AND the rifling moves, wears away, gets farther out... Still as accurate? If it is, continue. If not, work up a new load. THEN, each batch of powder is slightly different. Each batch of primers is different. Unless you can afford to buy and store a couple thousand pounds of powder you like... Again, you start over. This is the "fun"/ "challenge" / "work" of reloading. If it is not for you, get a part time job to pay for it and shoot factory. Luck.

 

[sqlbullet]

My experience is that data is married to a specific bullet is usually published by the maker of that bullet. They created the data to support those who purchased their product.

Frequently you will find that a given powder supplier is affiliated with certain bullet makers. For instance, Hodgdon's site lists 10mm loads for Nosler, Sierra and Hornady bullets, but not for Speer bullets. Alliant's site lists 10mm data only for Speer bullets. (Both list limited data for cast bullets).

As a general rule, I consider starting loads for a given bullet weight and design that I have cross-checked against two sources to be interchangeable.

The Lee data is more generalized, but as I understand it, the Lee data is a compilation of other's data.

In the end, Shoney is correct. Lots of variables.

 

[cavman]

Although this article refers to the .22, it is a nice read.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/eley_101405/index.html
They mention bullet as only one of the main factors (out of some couple of hundred variables!

The Army Marksmanship Unit (AMU) would weigh each bullet and separate out to 0.1 grains; variations up to 0.5 were used for practice. (AMU shooters at Camp Perry is this source)

Some bullet manufactures make a greater percentage of their bullets closer to the same bullet weight than others. I believe that this can be caused by small air bubbles in the lead. (Neil at http://www.nsksales.com/ is source)

 

[Bart B.]

Most bullets of the same weight and actual diameter can be exchanged with each other.

But here's some reality checks on how they're made to be accurate.

Weight ain't too important. Most high power match rifle records have been set with bullets having a .2 to .3 tenths grain spread. Sorting 'em into 1/10th grain spreads won't overcome their slight unbalance they all have that makes 'em wobble a bit and have slightly different ballistic coefficients even if their weights were exactly the same.

Weight tolerances are caused by the lead cores and copper jackets which ain't perfect in weight. Any tiny air bubble will effect balance more than weight; balance causes more accuracy problems than weight.

And yes, the USAMU weighs bullets. They don't need to as folks who don't weigh them out shoot the Army's best more often than not. But it makes 'em feel better and nobody shoots good if they don't feel that way. Spinning them very fast in a tool to measure their unbalance is the best test. It's been done and perfectly balanced bullets with a 4/10ths grain spread have shot the most accurate of all at longer ranges.

 

[Howard Roark]

The AMU also measures bullet length. The new Sierra 2156 tends to have two different lengths.

As far as out shooting the Army in 2008, it wasn't a good year:

Pres100- Norm Anderson, Hearst Doubles- Dement/Singley, NTT- Praslick, NTIT- Praslick, NRA SR- Ty Cooper, Herrick Trophy- Praslick, Wimbledon Cup- Green, South Africa Bisley Union- Ty Cooper, Spirit of America- Ty Cooper, Creedmoor Cup- Singley.

 

[Bart B.]

Howard, folks have been finding differences in Sierra's bullet lengths for over 50 years. It's normal for this to happen anytime the same forming dies are used for each stage of core and jacket manufacure. All the metals used ain't 100% homogenous and machine cycle tolerances ain't perfect. But nobody has statistically proved they make a significant difference in down range performance. Some folks have made a one-time test of a dozen or so shots with each of two bullet measurements concerned. It's a 50-50 split as to whether the differences are worth the time and trouble to sort out. They've not repeated the same test several times under the same conditions to verify the results are valid.

 

[Walkalong]

Length is not really that important. Reasonable weight uniformity is, but the two most important things, IMHO, is jacket uniformity, which will affect balance, and, consistent, well formed bases. To me, those are the two most important things.

 

[ranger335v]

"Basically, why can't load data be more generalized? Instead of saying that a load requires a 180gr .308 Remington Core Locht bullet, why can't it simply say that it requires a 180 gr .308 bullet? Thanks."

Well, they are doing a CYA IF you change anything and try to sue them for your own errors. But, fact is, you can change components quite a bit safely IF you do it correctly.

NO component has as much effect on actual (and normal) chamber pressures as the weapon it's fired in. Every one "knows" that but it seems to be ignored a lot anyway, especially in the ponderous web speeches on never doing this and always doing that.

No matter the brand/design of a bullet, case and primer type or powder type or lot, IF we start low and ONLY work up if there are no over pressure signs we can accomidate any change in components we wish for a given cartridge and bullet weight. If that were not true there are many bullets we would never be able to shoot because we are not spoon-fed loads for using them!

 

[Slamfire]

Pres100- Norm Anderson, Hearst Doubles- Dement/Singley, NTT- Praslick, NTIT- Praslick, NRA SR- Ty Cooper, Herrick Trophy- Praslick, Wimbledon Cup- Green, South Africa Bisley Union- Ty Cooper, Spirit of America- Ty Cooper, Creedmoor Cup- Singley.

Oh, just rub some salt into the wound, to make them feel better!

Can any one confirm that Norm Anderson won the Presidents with a stock box Rock River NM?

 

[Howard Roark]

I don't know what Norm shot last year. Since he left Benning I don't see him except for Perry.

C J Atkins won the P100 in 2004 with a stock Bushmaster. He was 17 years old and the second civilian since 1977 to win the P100. His score of 298-15 is only 1 point and 4x behind the record.